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Subject: RE: JMS Destination handling
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>> Fair enough on the wire, but since JMS supports only topics/queues for
>> addressing today, why not define such fixed prefixes for use by JMS
>> and all other topic/queue based MoMs and then avoid the complex broker/client >> interaction of making these configurable/vendor-specific? Ie. why would we >> want them to be different? > >We might not want them to be different. >The main issue is likely to be that they already do differ in existing systems because the address string doesn't have a defined syntax, >and changing them to a particular fixed value might not be feasible in all cases. right - and that can be a problem for systems developed before a spec is completed – and it is a hassle.
However, there are presumably going to be
other incompatibilities in addition to this issue between any existing systems (where the incompatibilities are different for each existing system) and what the final mappings specification says and I would hate to set a precedence for needing a negotiation/dynamic
mechanism of handling each of those that we find – and then maybe still not enough since we don’t know the ones we don’t know. I don’t think we should let pre-standards work impose complexity that we will need to live with forever. Ie. more configuration or negotiation, needing to do mappings both for published messages and subscriptions
and then imposing these issues on administrators – it will not help encourage adoption. If existing systems/products did something different, I would prefer that they use the typical solution of them using system-specific ways to go from their own on pre-standard version to the standard – and do this as they see fit vs
burdening the standard with (dynamic) mechanisms to adapt to pre-standard versions whose characteristics we likely don’t fully understand. That’s why I’d prefer to just define a specific prefix for the identifier of a topic or queue to differentiate them from each other (and others in the Addressing spec) and leave it at that. Shawn -----Original Message----- ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Shawn McAllister" <Shawn.Mcallister@SolaceSystems.com> > To: "Robert X Godfrey" <robert.godfrey@jpmorgan.com>, "Robbie Gemmell"
> <rgemmell@redhat.com>, amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org > Sent: Wednesday, 17 December, 2014 1:45:38 PM > Subject: [amqp-bindmap] RE: JMS Destination handling > > +1 on option 3 for sure. > > > > >> My comment on prefixes is mainly that the work on the "global"
> >> addressing would potentially impact on "valid" address names, and
> >> that a simple prefix such as "queue:" might prevent the use of such
> >> addresses in a global context. As such I would probably favour a more flexible (e.g. > >> regex) mechanism for name "mangling". > > > > Fair enough on the wire, but since JMS supports only topics/queues for
> addressing today, why not define such fixed prefixes for use by JMS
> and all other topic/queue based MoMs and then avoid the complex broker/client > interaction of making these configurable/vendor-specific? Ie. why would we > want them to be different? > We might not want them to be different. The main issue is likely to be that they already do differ in existing systems because the address string doesn't have a defined syntax, and changing them to a particular fixed value might not be feasible in all cases. > > > Allowing them to be different by implementation, imo, adds yet more
> complexity to the client/broker interaction and will only further
> complicate any kind of broker-to-broker addressing of topic/queues
> required for federation. > > > > Shawn > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org > [mailto:amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Godfrey,
> Robert X > Sent: December-17-14 8:19 AM > To: Robbie Gemmell; amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org > Subject: [amqp-bindmap] RE: JMS Destination handling > > > > As per the TC call yesterday, I think option 3 is the only truly
> viable solution here. > > > > > There was also a suggestion that something beyond a simple prefix
> > may > > > be needed, I will let the person behind those thoughts expand
> > further > > > to stop this getting any longer for now. > > > > That'd be me, I guess :-) > > > > My comment on prefixes is mainly that the work on the "global"
> addressing would potentially impact on "valid" address names, and that
> a simple prefix such as "queue:" might prevent the use of such
> addresses in a global context. As such I would probably favour a more
> flexible (e.g. regex) mechanism for name "mangling". > > > > > > A quick thought on Destination equivalence - I'm guessing that in JMS
> terms two Destinations are equal iff they are of the same type
> (Topic/Queue/etc - derived from meta-data) and use the same *mangled* AMQP address? > > > > -- Rob > > > > > > Legally required information for business correspondence/Gesetzliche
> Pflichtangaben für Geschäftskorrespondenz: > > http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/international/germany/email > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: > amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org<mailto:amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open > .org> [mailto:amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org] On Behalf Of Robbie
> Gemmell > > Sent: 17 December 2014 12:32 > > To: > amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open.org<mailto:amqp-bindmap@lists.oasis-open > .org> > > Subject: [amqp-bindmap] JMS Destination handling > > > > Hi everyone, > > > > I would like to have a discussion around JMS destination handling in
> the JMS Mapping for AMQP 1.0, in particular around how to handle JMS
> Destination names via the AMQP "address" field of a link
> (producer/consumer) source/target and the "to", and "reply-to" field of messages. > > > > Apologies for the length of the mail, there is a fair bit to outline.
> I moved some information for full context to the end to help a tiny
> bit. I didn't use JIRA for this as mentioned on the call yesterday, as
> I noticed a problem with my account. > > > > JMS defines multiple Destination types that each have their own
> inherent name space, so it is possible for example to have a Queue and
> a Topic with the same name (e.g "foo"). AMQP defines an "address"
> field on the source/target of links (producers/consumers), and a "to"
> and "reply-to" field are available on messages, to indicate the
> destination node (e.g queue/topic) address. These are typically string
> values, and they form a single space since as there is no additional
> node type information only the address name itself. > > > > This is is mostly an issue for non-temporary Queues and Topics since
> TemporaryQueue and TemporaryTopic destinations will be given generated
> addresses by the 'broker' peer through use of dynamic nodes, and so
> can naturally be prevented from having the same addresses as each
> other, and be made unlikely or unable to clash with non-temporary nodes. > > > > To handle this mapping between JMS and AMQP it would seem we must either: > > 1. Not support JMS Queues and Topics with the same name existing at
> all, OR 2. Allow multiple nodes to have the same address string but
> use type metadata (via capabilities + annotations, see additional
> context) to discriminate between them, OR 3. Utilise address string
> naming conventions (e.g prefixes) for them to separate the types into subspaces. > > > > The first option is an issue for implementations that already do, and
> wish to continue to, allow Queues and Topics with the same name via
> other protocols while also supporting AMQP, and would be a limitation
> in terms of full JMS support. The second option would break reply-to
> usage for any clients or intermediaries that don't understand the
> message annotations and/or > source+target capabilities carrying type metadata (see additional context). > The third option either requires clients to always utilise the full
> address strings in session.createQueue("<queue-prefix>foo") etc calls,
> or providing a means to configure the prefixes within the client so
> that they are added/removed behind the scenes and the application just
> uses session.createQueue("foo"), but the resulting AMQP address string
> would be "<queue-prefix>foo". The main issue with requiring clients
> always use the full address as the session.createQueue(..) value would
> be for bridging between different systems using different conventions,
> though the values for those methods are noted as being provider-specific. > > > > Both the old Qpid AMQP 1.0 JMS client, and the new JMS client we are
> creating that implements the JMS Mapping for AMQP being worked on,
> currently do some form of the third option, providing a way to
> configure a 'queue prefix' and 'topic prefix' that are used to prefix
> the application provided strings in > session.createQueue(..) etc for outgoing addresses used for links and
> messages and be stripped from incoming addresses on messages to give
> the names used for the JMSDestination and JMSReplyTo objects.
> Temporary destinations are named by the 'broker' peer and their
> addresses are used as provided. > > > > The main issue with this approach is that such configuration makes it
> more difficult to use the client against a number of different
> brokers, which is a goal, since this configuration is likely to differ
> between them meaning even the simplest HelloWorld type example may be
> unable to work against them without additional configuration. > > > > An idea to handle this was to have the brokers use connection
> properties to inform the client of the prefixes (if any) they require
> it to use, allowing different brokers to supply their own specific
> value (if any) to meet their requirements, and allowing clients/simple
> applications to work against many of them without further configuration change. > > > > An alternative suggestion was to have the JMS Mapping define a set of
> standard name prefixes the client would use by default, such that the
> issue of Topics and Queues with the same name is addressed by the
> mapping, while also allowing brokers to specify their own values via
> connection properties so that their specific needs can still be met if
> different (e.g they have existing naming conventions they wish/need to retain). > > > > There was also a suggestion that something beyond a simple prefix may
> be needed, I will let the person behind those thoughts expand further
> to stop this getting any longer for now. > > > > Thoughts? > > > > Robbie > > > > > > > > Additional Context: > > > > We also need to transmit the destination type information during link
> (e.g > producer/consumer) attachment and on sent messages to ensure we can
> support the required JMS behaviours (e.g. to indicate we are attaching
> to a particular type of node, say a queue, and for carrying
> JMSDestination and JMSReplyTo type on messages to indicate/discover where a message was sent). > > > > For handling these points we are defining the following behaviour: > > > > # During link attachment for producers/consumers: > > - Node name carried in source/target "address" field string. > > - JMS Destination type represented by capabilities on the
> source/target (e.g "queue", "topic", "temporary-queue", "temporary-topic"). > > - Clients can optionally assert on the attach response that the
> required capabilities exist in the source/target to ensure they have
> attached to a node that meets their requirements. > > - 'Broker' peers can use the capabilities to determine the type of
> node to create if it is a dynamic node being requested (or if they
> support auto-creation of non-temporary nodes). > > > > # When sending messages: > > - Node names carried in "to" and "reply-to" fields as appropriate. > > - JMS Destination type carried in "x-opt-jms-dest" and "x-opt-jms-reply-to" > message annotations as a byte. > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
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