I'm
trying to get caught up with this thread. For some reason the last n
(approx 4 - 5) emails from Geoff
are
causing Outlook to crash for me. I'm gleaning what I can from Mark's side
of the conversation. Is this
a
problem with my system only or have others had any problems?
Thanks,
=bill
Just to be clear, the proposal is on the table for version 1.0 of
the specification - not for version 1.1 . I raised this well before the
issues list was closed ( issue 89 ).
Geoff, there's no disputing that this
issue is open. What I would dispute is the difference between mentioning
something is coming and actually providing the committee with details on what
that "thing" is. This definitely did not happen until the last f2f as far as I
can see. I remember you mentioning JMS-interop a couple of times on
teleconferences but that's it. If you can point me at the tc minutes or
archived emails that show different I'd certainly stand
corrected.
Mark.
Mark Little wrote:
[Mark Potts] Geoff, Mark, Jim -
Hi!Mark,
Apologies
.. I retract the comment about missing questions, find the spec
attached with answers to your comments ( annotations ). This
supplements the other email threads.
BTW - Don't feel you have to justify your position with vague
comments like .. " I know that HP is not the only company on the
committee that feels the same and that others have expressed this in
same concern in face-to-face meetings" .. I would expect the
other participants to openly express their opinions in a
constructive manner, I have very thick skin and an equally open
mind. I feel the proposal I have made stands on it's own
merits. As far as I am aware they have. However, you
are certainly correct in that it would be good to hear from others on
this subject. [Mark
Potts] Ok I am I am sure it is me being discussed as the cloaked
third party here!
There are others, but I'd prefer to close that part of this topic
now.
I have not entered the
foray as yet, since voicing my objection at the f2f, because 1)
I have been at the WS-I for last 3 days and am behind in e-mail
terribly 2) was waiting for the use cases that determine/define this
features so I can look at it in detail and bounce the concepts and see
if our contacts see a need, have pain or could benefit from this. I
was asked at the f2f to wait, in voicing objections, until we had this
document and then discuss the appropriateness of the proposal - now I
have the docs and details I will be reading them
today.On a less specific point,
I have stated for a long time now that there are some things I believe
would add real value to the spec (we needed to look at SOAP
Intermediaries and SOAP routing, SOAP Referral because of a
cases similar to Geoff's ) however I have been told NO repeatedly,
justified by concerns that we cannot increase scope and the spec has
to be finished and put out there. As a committee we all agreed to not only
close scope but close issues last month and while I think Geoff's
suggestions would be good to look at in terms of future work I think
its exactly that - future
work.
Agreed, though that shouldn't come as a surprise given the emails
that have flown back and forth.
My concerns with these
issues run a little deeper in that, during the last month or two, the
spec is being driven by the concerns of a number of companies now
specifically regarding their product direction and
needs.
Again agreed. We've held off on adding anything to the spec. at
this late stage that might be seen as product related and we're quite
happy to continue to do that.
The spec should not be
driven this way. If I could take you back a month or 5, there were
certain accusation about made about BEA in the past, regarding product
direction driving the spec, when they tried to de-scope and
simplify! The spec HAS
to be
driven by problems the industry is facing, and in my mind specifically
transactionality for Web Services, although I agree the bindings could
be expanded to support other type of
scenarios.
Also
your comment " The fact that you continue not to answer these
real issues does not do this issue any good " ... Other
than a decent use case requirement, which is well justified, I feel
that I have answered ALL your questions .. With the last 2
emails you have certainly begun to answer those questions. And for
that I'm grateful. [Mark Potts] Agreed I
think I see more clearly now what Geoff is defining in terms of
need - that however does not mean it has to be included in the
scope of the spec at this time - or it could if deemed
IMPERATIVE.
The discussion that has started to take place over the last day or
so has definitely been useful in beginning to clarify what the problem is,
but it's still a long way off defining what the solution should be. If it
has taken us this long to get to this stage then who knows how long it
will take to come to a resolution. Should we delay the spec. just to get
issue 89 in? I'd prefer not to. I'd also prefer not to have to vote on it
just in case the vote is no and it gets dropped *and* it turns out to have
been a useful thing afterall.
now
if you accept them or not is a different matter ... One could also
say that I was warned your resistance was to be expected for many
reasons .. and no doubt from the same sources you refer to. I will
naturally let these sources speak for themselves rather than use
them as a justification for my position. We (HP) are not
in a position that having Oracles support on BTP is so important that
we will bend-over backwards to accomodate all isues you may say you
require. That's not the way this committee has worked in the past and
just because we are close to finishing I don't think we should change.
All I am asking for is a good use case and a strong reason for why
this should be added *now*. If you read back through all of the emails
I have sent on this subject you will see that I have never said we
should not discuss this or that it shouldn't be added; only that it
should be discussed *in detail* and deferred to post 1.0 because there
is a lot more required than just state serialisation. Not having this
in the 1.0 specification will not affect its take-up IMO, but having
it in in a potentially broken form may make it harder to correct later
(note, I am *not* saying that the XML we've seen is broken or
anything, only that if this is rushed through we run the risk of
missing important things that may be required to accomplish what you
want.) This all seems reasonable to me. [Mark Potts] I sort of agree with Mark here as per my last set of
comments - What happens if IBM decide to join the party tomorrow
and add their take on transaction and the WSTx - do we change the spec
again to accommodate their concerns too! Oracle bring great value to
the effort and credibility to TC but we need to get something
closed.
The longer we wait, the greater the chance that BTP will lose
relevance. We're already starting to see this with IBM and MSFT. We are
seeing this with some customers who now could care less about BTP
compatibility. Once we have a standard we can at least point to it as *the
only* standard out there. We can't do that as
yet.
Mark.
And
.. " I know that we are all busy with other things" .. as I
mentioned to the group - I am at the whim of Oracle's 4th Quarter and
at the scheduling of the BTP calls ... I do my best - period. I am
truly sorry that I can not make HP's FTF, however I have noted that we
are both presenting at NextWare (May 20-23) yourself on "transactions
in a web services model" and I on "GRID infrastructure" so hopefully
we can finally meet F2F.I look forward to it.
Anyway,
keep it professional and not personal .. we all want the same
thing, a BTP that is valuable. I hope so too. Mark.
Geoff.
Geoffrey Brown wrote:
Mark,
Can you make your questions explicit .. I only see highlighted
text ??
I very disappointed that you feel that I do not answer your
questions ??
Always happy to elaborate .. I feel a conf call my serve as a
better medium ... I will be unable to make the conf call next
Wednesday as I will be with a client .. therefore, please
provide some suitable dates / times ....
9pm PST works on the 25th / 29th April.
Mark Little wrote:
> Geoff, I'd be happy if you could also answer all other
queries in the marked > up Word document and previous
emails on this subject. They are all meant to > be
constructive, despite what you may feel. As I have said time and
time > again, if you can show that this is a useful thing
to do then I believe we > should consider it. However, you
have not done that and perhaps that is > simply down to
mis-communication. I know that HP is not the only company on
> the committee that feels the same and that others have
expressed this in > same concern in face-to-face meetings.
> > The fact that you continue not to answer these
real issues does not do this > issue any good. I know that
we are all busy with other things, but if you > feel
strongly about this issue then I hope you will find the time to
try to > convince myself and others. > >
Mark. > > ----- Original Message ----- >
From: "Geoffrey Brown" <Geoffrey.Brown@oracle.com> >
To: "WEBBER,JIM (HP-UnitedKingdom,ex1)" <jim_webber@hp.com>
> Cc: "Bt-Spec" <bt-spec@lists.oasis-open.org>;
"Brown,Geoffrey" > <GEOFFREY.BROWN@oracle.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2002 7:42 PM > Subject:
Re: [bt-spec] FW: Issue 89 > > > Hi Jim, >
> > > As this is a constructive request from yourself
(HP) I am happy to > elaborate > > elaborate.
Considering that the BTP contains a huge amount of TP Gurus
> this > > should make sense .. I hope ;-)
> > > > The issue : > > -----------
> > > > It is very attractive to gain "peer"
level inter operability with the BTP > TM, by > >
"peer" level inter operability I mean the ability of a non-BTP TM
to > collect the > > state ( on demand ) and
therefore continue execution within a traditional > TP
> > infrastructure. > > > > A
natural by-product of this approach is that it provides much
greater > levels of > > HA. > >
> > Where this comes from : > >
------------------------- > > > > My
experience with integrating transactional application and
navigating > supply > > chains ( i.e. vendors
apps et al ) is that one has to "patch" together > >
transactional state across TPMs. This is a well known problem that
many > SIs > > face, due to limitations with TP
monitors this is usually addressed by > > asynchronous
messaging. Ironically this is exactly why TP monitors can not
> be > > used across the web today ; I
architected Oracle's Message Broker for this > very
> > reason. > > > > Summary :
> > ----------- > > > > This is not
rocket science .. this is common sense. Bindings allow >
> "client-server" inter operability only. Let me be clear that
bindings are > needed > > but I feel they do not
address the aforementioned problem .. *IF* the BTP > >
committee want a truly *OPEN* transaction infrastructure then this
> proposal > > addresses the problem. >
> > > Again I propose this approach as an "optional"
part of the BTP spec - for > large > > scale
complex transactional infrastructures. The BTP TM should only
render > its > > current state in XML on DEMAND
and not for every single operation. > > > > If
there are any constructive alternatives please let me know as I
will be > very > > happy to apply these to the
real-world problems that the industry faces. > >
> > Geoff. > > > > > >
"WEBBER,JIM (HP-UnitedKingdom,ex1)" wrote: > > >
> > Hi everyone, > > > > > > I've
just read Geoff's document and Mark's comments. Now I am perfectly
> > > willing to accept that I might be being naïve
here, but could someone > please > > > clarify
for me what precisely the benefits of sharing state in a common
> > > format are? I can well enough see the drawbacks
for myself, but I am > rather > > > finding
the benefits difficult to quantify. > > > >
> > I don't have an objection to J2EE (or any other platform
for that > matter) > > > interop with BTP, but
does sharing of state (as opposed to say defining > >
> standard bindings at the message level) really achieve that
objective in > a > > > straightfoward way?
> > > > > > Again, this isn't a rebuttal
to the Oracle/Choreology suggestion, more > of a >
> > plea for help in understanding its value. > >
> > > > Ta. > > > > > >
Jim > > > > > >
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