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Subject: Raw chat log July 2013 F2F
Meeting Attendees Spreadsheet Company Name Role US Department of Defense (DoD) Michael Behrens Voting Member Oracle Martin Chapman Chair Cloudsoft Corporation Limited Alex Heneveld Voting Member Cloudsoft Corporation Limited Duncan Johnston-Watt Member Oracle Anish Karmarkar Voting Member Oracle Ashok Malhotra Voting Member Rackspace Hosting, Inc. Adrian Otto Secretary Vnomic Derek Palma Voting Member Oracle Gilbert Pilz Voting Member Fujitsu Limited Tom Rutt Voting Member Voting Members: 9 of 13 (69%) (used for quorum calculation) anonymous morphed into Anish Karmarkar Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): http://yaml.org/spec/current.html#id2513364 MartinC : http://yaml.org/spec/1.1/ Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r-BZymi8QZ9JVwJSLsosGQlBSfu5u98N5yQimIKnxhE/edit?usp=sharing anonymous morphed into Ashok Malhotra Adrian Otto (Rackspace) morphed into Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe] anonymous morphed into Duncan Johnston-Watt (Cloudsoft) Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anybody planning to join the call? Ashok Malhotra: What's the secret code? Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: same as usual Ashok Malhotra: I will join Ashok Malhotra: Sorry, I don't have ir ... pl. type it in MartinC: Intro: Scribe appointment - 1 per session: Roll Call Agenda approval (re-approval each session): to include picking which topics go in which afternoon. Minutes: 3rd July 2013: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/email/archives/201307/msg00010.html Action Items: Administrivia: Project Status: Timeline: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/48760/CAMP%20sched%202013-04-05.pdf?referring_url=%2Fkws Editing Team Update: New Issues: Review of P1 Issues: Status check towards Public Review: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/secure/IssueNavigator.jspa?sorter/field=priority&sorter/order=DESC Issue Discussion: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-4 Need a formal specification of the PDP format Latest from Gil: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49858/camp-spec-v1.1-wd12-issue-4-v7.doc https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-65 describe PDP format and contents draft proposal in google docs: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r-BZymi8QZ9JVwJSLsosGQlBSfu5u98N5yQimIKnxhE/edit?usp=sharing https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-56 Add Conformance Section Agree terminology https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-9 Support sensors and effectors on components via API Scheduling and planning AOB: MartinC: ashok ; we all scream for ****** Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Roll Call Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Scribe. Adrian assumes scribe duty. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: 8/13 voting members. Meeting is quorate. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Agenda Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Goal: resolve P1 issues to drive us to public review. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: MOTION: Gil approve minutes from 2013-07-03 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: second by Tom Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: No discussion, no objections, minutes approved. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Editor's Update Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: no remarks. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Agenda items for tomorrow. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Administrivia Gil Pilz (Oracle): http://www.cloudplugfest.org/cloud-interoperability-week Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Cloudsoft agrees to present at Madrid event Gil Pilz (Oracle): Santa Clara, USA, September 16-18 and Madrid, Spain, September 18-20, 2013 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Cloudsoft): Alex to attend https://sites.google.com/a/cloudplugfest.org/welcome/upcoming-events/next-event-september-18-20-2013 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Two events in two locations: Madrid and Santa Clara. We will have TC representatives at both. Santa Clara will be attended by Gil. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: discussion about attendance at Eurocloud event in October. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: "Eurocloud Congress" October 15,16 Luxembourg Duncan Johnston-Watt (Cloudsoft): CFP http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/cloudopen-europe/program/cfp Derek Palma (Vnomic): i am having trouble hearing voices when more than one person speaks Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: jokes from Duncan about hearing voices Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Review of P1 Issues Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: 7 open P1 issues: CAMP-4, CAMP-9, CAMP-45, CAMP-55, CAMP-56, CAMP-61, CAMP-65 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Solutions plans will land for each of these. No apparent showstoppers. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: (switching phones, please stand by) Derek Palma (Vnomic): sounds better Anish Karmarkar @derek @ashok can u say something? Derek Palma (Vnomic): thanks, much better Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: we plan to discuss CAMP-45 on Wed morning Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: as it's going to be editorial in nature. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: no new issues Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: Issue Discussion Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: CAMP-4: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-4 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Gil presents. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: proposal is: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49858/camp-spec-v1.1-wd12-issue-4-v7.doc Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Example 6 changed, some lines were removed Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: this simplifies the Ruby/Rails DP Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: solves a bug: added the version node in the DP to each example. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: that concludes the summary of changes. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Alex suggests we make the version attribute named CampVersion Gil Pilz (Oracle): "campVersion" ? Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: s/CampVersion/campVersion/ Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Gil speaks in opposition Derek Palma (Vnomic): can't hear anish Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anish speaks in opposition Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Alex agrees. Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): I move to resolve CAMP-4 with proposal draft v7 with one change: "version" attribute changed to "campVersion", and that included in the examples. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: MOTION: Alex moves to resolve Issue CAMP-4 with https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49858/camp-spec-v1.1-wd12-issue-4-v7.doc with s/CampVersion/campVersion/ and examples changed accordingly Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): s/version/campVersion/ Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: MOTION: Alex moves to resolve Issue CAMP-4 with https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49858/camp-spec-v1.1-wd12-issue-4-v7.doc with s/version/campVersion/ and examples changed accordingly Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anish seconds MartinC: section 4.3.2.1 version Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: No Discussion, No Objections Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Motion passed w/o Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: recognition of a major milestone Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: CAMP-65: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-65 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anish takes action item to make an Inline word format proposal based on the current draft proposal and attach it to the issue Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Derek asks qhy tar format, and not zip? Zip is not indexed. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Zip is indexed, but tar is not. tar has metadata concern that's platform specific. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: tar allows for a stream to be expanded with a chunked encoding Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Zip can not Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Alex proceeds with presentation of the proposal draft. Anish Karmarkar: zip spec reference: http://www.pkware.com/documents/APPNOTE/APPNOTE-6.3.2.TXT Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anish: that's in the draft at the end. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: discussion of external spec references required for this proposal Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: references to TAR and GZIP will be added Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Discussion of archive formats concluded Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Tom asks for clarification on the camp.yaml Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Gil asks why should we even mention Zip, when it's one of many available archive formats Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Anish responds indicating that ZIP is very common among small package deployments Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Alex suggests that we also require support for ZIP Derek Palma (Vnomic): +1 to require zip support because 1) it's pervasive (a lot of artifacts and tools use this format), 2) it's not that hard to support (i.e. most everyone will support it anyway) Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Members of the F2F will revise the proposal, and present it tomorrow Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Topic: CAMP-56: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-56 Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Time check: 18 minutes remaining. Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: In our conformance section we will declare that CAMP Provider and CAMP Consumer shall refer to any mention of "provider" and "consumer" respectively in the spec. Anish Karmarkar: "A compliant CAMP Provider MUST comply with all mandatory requirements in this specification which have Provider as a target." Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe]: Time Check: 5 minutes remaining Adrian Otto (Rackspace) [scribe] morphed into Adrian Otto (Rackspace) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Cloudsoft) morphed into Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Session recess proposed by chair Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Next session 1.30PM MT Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Tuesday July 9 MartinC: bridge is open MartinC: Today's agenda will cover: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-9 Support sensors and effectors on components via API Updated Agenda: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49890/camp-spec-v1.1-wd15-issue-9-v3.doc Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Resumption of F2F meeting Adrian Otto (Rackspace): https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49890/camp-spec-v1.1-wd15-issue-9-v4.doc Adrian Otto (Rackspace): v4 has minor changes to v3 MartinC: duncan scribes MartinC: camp 62 MartinC: planning Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Martin reporting that CAMP-9 has been discussed informally in preparation for this meeting Anish Karmarkar: https://oracleconferencing.webex.com/oracleconferencing/j.php?J=257907583 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian presenting v4 CAMP-9 - context necessary primitives for policy-based management of platform EG scheduled maintenance; auto scaling etc Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): 2.1.1.5 introduces concept of operations and sensors and their role supporting policy-based management Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Discussion about use of term "policy-based management" Gil Pilz (Oracle): would favor saying less rather than more Gil Pilz (Oracle): the danger of saying too much is that people will misinterpret what our spec says Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Sensors and operations are necessary but not sufficient hence "enablers" - Alex Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Note: Operations are also known as effectors (para 2) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Mike Behrens - does the spec discuss policy frameworks? Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Alex/Martin - Out of scope Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): CAMP spec is providing bare bones support (sensors/operations) for policy-based management without expressing any view about type of policy framework Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing 5.26 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing 5.27 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing 5.28.4 sensorType Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing 5.28.5 value; 5.28.6 (optional) timestamp and 5.28.7 operations Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian - should be operationsUri (corrected) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian is submitting v5 containing edits from this realtime review Adrian Otto (Rackspace): https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49890/camp-spec-v1.1-wd15-issue-9-v5.doc MartinC: motion: tom, s: adrion resolve camp-9 with proposal in v5 (link above) MartinC: s/adrion/adrian/ MartinC: propsal v5 has been added to jira Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): no discussion Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): no objections Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): CAMP-9 closed Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Now discussing CAMP-62 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-62 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Either close with no action or with recommended best practice (note) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian to take ownership and prepare proposal to present at future date Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Discussing CAMP-61 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-61 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Informal discussion to follow Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian - Could downgrade ahead of public review? Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Now discussing CAMP-55 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-55 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Informal discussion to follow Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Gil - spec cannot go to public review without clearing up this issue Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Adrian - agreed. This needs to be addressed. Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - #1 priority for informal session tomorrow Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Tom - CAMP-9 - Editors to add common attributes Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing P2s Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): General discussion about relationship between application and platform components Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Reviewing https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-29 and https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-5 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - Effectively the same issue Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Tom - 5.26 - targetResource should be URI (pseudo schema) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Gil - motion to change CAMP-51 from P3 to P2 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Tom - seconded Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): No discussion Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): No objections Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-51 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Discussing planning Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): 1. Timeline to public review Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - Target to vote on PR candidate Wed July 31 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Tom - Can work on test assertions during "quiet period" Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): 2. Timeline to complete Test Assertions Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - One month out from PR Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - PR will begin 1-2 weeks after vote then run for 30 days Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Which means PR will wrap Friday Sept 13 Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - Logically a F2F early Oct to close out all issues/PR comments ahead of final PR Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - Second PR end Oct (15 days) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): MartinC - wrap by end of year Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Action - MartinC to verify who is on comment list Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): 3. Setting date for raising the bar Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Anish - End of Sept Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): (Ahead of F2F early Oct) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): F2F week of Oct 7 (Oct 8-10) Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Potential location London Duncan Johnston-Watt (Scribe): Session recess MartinC : https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/comments/index.php?wg_abbrev=camp MartinC: https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-65 Proposal in Jira: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/document.php?document_id=49910 https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-55 Lifecycle Diagram is conflating two levels of states, leading to inconsistencies MartinC: proposal: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/document.php?document_id=49914 anonymous morphed into Anish Karmarkar Anish Karmarkar: https://oracleconferencing.webex.com/oracleconferencing/j.php?J=257907583 Gil Pilz (Oracle): ping Gil Pilz (Oracle): SCRIBE: Gil Gil Pilz (Oracle): TOPIC: CAMP-55 Gil Pilz (Oracle): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-55 Gil Pilz (Oracle): (Alex presents proposal) Gil Pilz (Oracle): https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/camp/download.php/49914/camp-spec-issue-55-wd15-v3.docx Gil Pilz (Oracle): Alex: discussion of the lifecycle was not in synch with current thinking Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... in addition, we repeated ourselves at least three times through sections 2 and 3 Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... renamed Section 2 to "Concepts and Types" Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... Section 2.1 renamed to "Application Assemblies" Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... changed text to change self-referential definitions like "An Application Component is a component of an application". Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... Adrian added a new diagram to show how Assembly Templates and Assemblies are created Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... broke "metadata" section into more descriptive sections Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... extensions, parameters, common types, etc. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: Adrian's diagram is a mini-lifecycle Gil Pilz (Oracle): Alex: Section 3 now "Application Management Lifecycle" Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... initially there is a PC with some PCTs and, maybe, some PCs Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... register an app and you get Assembly Templates, Application Component Templates, etc. Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... more information on the use of "representationSkew" Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: do we have suspend and resume Gil Pilz (Oracle): Alex: no Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... but we have operations Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: don't think we want to create common operations Gil Pilz (Oracle): Alex: finally we have removing Assemblies and AssemblyTemplates Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... at the end, the resources should look just like you found them before you registered the application Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: this proposal is a new direction, we need to read it and think about it Gil Pilz (Oracle): Tom: we took away the state chart? Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: Yws Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: what is attractive is that we are reducing the degree of abstraction in this part of the spec Gil Pilz (Oracle): Tom: I like it. Do we need to wait to accept this? Gil Pilz (Oracle): (misc. discussion about the need) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Gil: Adrian can be assumed to be in favor of it. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: I want to read it. We'll put it on the agenda for next week. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: People on the phone? Gil Pilz (Oracle): Ashok: It looks OK, though I haven't read all of it. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Derek: It feels OK - but I need to study it in more detail. Gil Pilz (Oracle): TOPIC: CAMP-65 Gil Pilz (Oracle): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-65 Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: We went over the proposal yesterday. This is that text in the context of the spec. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: (presents proposal) Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r-BZymi8QZ9JVwJSLsosGQlBSfu5u98N5yQimIKnxhE/edit?usp=sharing Alex Heneveld (Cloudsoft): ^^^ this is the input text to Anish's proposal Gil Pilz (Oracle): (some small changes to proposal text) Gil Pilz (Oracle): (small changes degenerate into a full-on joint editing session) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: Changes to Section 6. We now speak in terms of registering an application, not a PDP. An application can be registered using either a PDP (which contains a DP) or by using a bare DP. Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... one change I do want to point out. Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... If you provided a PDP, the AssemblyTemplate "pdpURI" attribute had to point to a copy of the PDP. Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... We added the "dpURI" attribute to the AssemblyTemplate to mirror this behavior for DPs. Gil Pilz (Oracle): (misc. discussion on the use of "pdpURI" and "dpURI") Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: One attribute or two attributes? Gil Pilz (Oracle): Tom: If you could possibly have both, use two attributes. Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: Ourstanding issue around may/should/shall for media types of different packaging formats. Gil Pilz (Oracle): (joint editing session continues) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: We've just made some minor, material changes. Are people OK with those? Gil Pilz (Oracle): ... Does this look reasonable? Gil Pilz (Oracle): All:: (assenting noises) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Anish: Next question, are people comfortable in accepting this? Gil Pilz (Oracle): All: (assenting noises) Gil Pilz (Oracle): MOTION: Resolve CAMP-65 with the proposal at (xxxxxxx) Gil Pilz (Oracle): SECOND: Anish Gil Pilz (Oracle): RESOLUTION: motion approved by unanamous consent Anish Karmarkar: approved proposal: https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/document.php?document_id=49916&wg_abbrev=camp Gil Pilz (Oracle): TC thanks Cloudsoft for their gracious hospitality. Gil Pilz (Oracle): TOPIC: New Issues Gil Pilz (Oracle): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-65 Gil Pilz (Oracle): https://tools.oasis-open.org/issues/browse/CAMP-72 Gil Pilz (Oracle): (ignore 65 link) Gil Pilz (Oracle): "Error Response Message Resource looks like relic of a bygone age" Gil Pilz (Oracle): Gil: (describes issue) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Tom: I move to open CAMP-72 Gil Pilz (Oracle): Gil: Seconds Gil Pilz (Oracle): RESOLUTION: Motion approved by unanamous consent Gil Pilz (Oracle): TOPIC: Int'l Cloud Symposium (ICS) Gil Pilz (Oracle): Martin: If anybody can/wants to cover this, send email Gil Pilz (Oracle): MEETING ADJOURNED
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