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Subject: Re: [dita-learningspec] Meeting time for discussion on DITA Learning and Training futures
I can make 9/19, I probably can't make 9/26. Cheers, E. On 9/9/13 12:33 PM, "John Hunt/Cambridge/IBM" <john_hunt@us.ibm.com> wrote: > Hi all - > > Please get back to me on your interest/availability in attending a DITA L&T > sub-committee meeting to discuss the topics raised by Amber, JoAnn, Mark, and > Eliot below on future directions for the Learning and Training specialization. > > 1) Thursday, Sep 19 at 10-11 US ET > > 2) Thursday, Sep 26 at 10-11 US ET > > Thanks. > > John > ___________________________________ > John Hunt > Senior Technical Content Architect > IBM Collaboration Solutions | User Experience: Design and Information > Excellence > 4502 S. Miami Blvd, Durham, NC 27703 > john_hunt@us.ibm.com | 919-254-2879 > > > > From: john_hunt@us.ibm.com > To: <amber@ditastrategies.com> > Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org, "'Eliot Kimber'" > <ekimber@rsicms.com>, "'Gemmell, Jennifer'" <jennifer.gemmell@sap.com>, > "'Myers, Mark'" <mark.myers@sap.com> > Date: 09/09/2013 10:49 AM > Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > Sent by: <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> > > > > > Hi all - > > I'd be happy to convene an L&T meeting on these topics. I'll also cc: Robert > Anderson, to get his input on how some of this might coordinate with updates > to the DITA Open Toolkit. > > How is Thursday, Sep 26 at 10 or 10:30 am US ET? > > John > > ___________________________________ > John Hunt > Senior Technical Content Architect > IBM Collaboration Solutions | User Experience: Design and Information > Excellence > 4502 S. Miami Blvd, Durham, NC 27703 > john_hunt@us.ibm.com | 919-254-2879 > > > > From: "Amber Swope" <amber@ditastrategies.com> > To: "'Myers, Mark'" <mark.myers@sap.com>, <john_hunt@us.ibm.com>, > "'Eliot Kimber'" <ekimber@rsicms.com> > Cc: <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org>, "'Gemmell, Jennifer'" > <jennifer.gemmell@sap.com> > Date: 09/02/2013 01:09 PM > Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > Sent by: <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> > > > > > Thanks for the reply, Mark. > > I¹ve had more than one person inquire about SCORM support, so it¹s on my > radar, too. > > John, > > What do you think the next step should be? Is it appropriate to use the > existing L&T subcommittee for this additional work? If so, can you please > schedule an L&T meeting for later in September for us to consider post-1.3 > work? I need the next couple of weeks to complete my 1.3 commitments. > > Thanks, Amber > > From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > [mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> ] On Behalf Of Myers, Mark > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 12:56 PM > To: amber@ditastrategies.com; john_hunt@us.ibm.com; 'Eliot Kimber' > Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org; Gemmell, Jennifer > Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > > Hi Amber, > > I¹m definitely interested and have the same views as you expressed. > > In SAP, we are using DITA 1.2 extensively to create our training and education > content. From a data modeling perspective, we found DITA 1.2 Learning and > Training spec to cover almost all our requirements. > > However, we did need to do extensive pipeline and style sheet development in > order to produce the formal types of outputs you mention below including > course outlines, SCORM e-learning courses for running on an LMS, instructor > presentations, instructor and participant handbooks, and so on. In my opinion, > it would be very beneficial for the adoption of DITA L&T to have an open > source implementation to generate these types of outputs. This would make the > adoption of DITA for learning and education much easier. > > Jenn Gemmell and I presented a summary of our use of DITA 1.2 for education in > our DITA NA conference presentation. She¹s an instructional designer and has > extensive hands-on experience in using DITA 1.2 for the development of > learning content so I would like to involve her as well. We would be happy to > discuss this topic in further detail. > > Regards, > Mark > > > > Mark Myers > Knowledge Transfer Architect, Production Platform Management and Operations > Knowledge Productization Services > SAP America, Inc. > 3999 West Chester Pike > Newtown Square, PA 19073 USA > T 1-610-661-5823 > F 1-610-661-5824 > M 1-484-802-1809 > > > > From: Amber Swope [mailto:amber@ditastrategies.com > <mailto:amber@ditastrategies.com> ] > Sent: Monday, August 26, 2013 3:07 PM > To: john_hunt@us.ibm.com <mailto:john_hunt@us.ibm.com> ; 'Eliot Kimber' > Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> ; Myers, Mark > Subject: RE: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > > Hi there, > > I know that we¹re still wrapping up our DITA 1.3 work, but wanted to restart > the conversation about what is next for the L&T support. In various meetings, > there has been the suggestion that we start a separate effort for formal > education support. I have multiple clients using the DITA L&T support and they > fall into the following broadly defined categories: > · knowledge transfer > o goal: present information to pass knowledge > o learning objective usage: no formal learning objective assessment > requirements > o delivery: information is presented with instructor-led session (in-person > or remotely via Internet) > o deliverables: slides > · training > o goal: train folks to perform certain tasks that correspond to specific > learning objectives > o learning objective usage: no formal assessment > o delivery: information is presented with instructor-led session (in-person > or remotely via Internet) or via downloadable webinars > o deliverables: slides; maybe some student materials and/or instructor > guide; exercises > · education > o goal: teach students formal curriculum that corresponds to specific > learning objectives > o learning objective usage: formal assessment with grading requirements > o delivery: information is presented in many ways, including instructor-led > session (in-person or remotely via Internet) using slides, via downloadable > webinars, via LMS, S > o deliverables: slides, LMS content, syllabus, student materials, instructor > guide, tests, practice tests, course descriptions, compliance documents, > question banks > > Do other folks have a similar understanding of this space? If not, how is your > experience different? > > My experience is that with the DITA 1.3 updates, we can meet the majority of > the needs for the first two groups, but the education folks need more formal > support. Is anyone else interested in working on this more formal support? If > so, how is the best way to do this? > Thanks, A > Amber Swope > dita specialist > <dita strategies> > 503.922.3038 > amber@ditastrategies.com <mailto:amberswope@gmail.com> > > > > > From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> > [mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> ] On Behalf Of > john_hunt@us.ibm.com <mailto:john_hunt@us.ibm.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 10:52 AM > To: Eliot Kimber > Cc: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> ; Myers, Mark > Subject: Re: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > > Hi Eliot, Mark, all - > > Thanks, Eliot, for digging out that 2005 paper, which did inform a good part > of the initial OASIS discussions about the L&T specialization. > > We had quite a bit of discussion in the sub-committee about additional topic > types for practice, exercises, labs, and so forth. In good part because there > were quite a few variants of this kind of content, we ultimately resolved that > for the general spec, we'd include just the single learningContent type, > intended as a general vehicle for all types of learning content. > > That said, I'd say that learningContent is intended also as a vehicle for > further specialization, as might be needed for specific purposes, such as the > one you bring up for learningPractice. > > But your reply also brings up the issue of what base type to specialization > from. For learningContent, we chose "topic" to make it as generic as possible, > since learning content might be task, concept, or reference, not just task. > And of course, this poses a dilemma for learningPractice, which quite frankly > we did not resolve in those earlier discussions about the learningContent > type. If you want a learningPractice topic that specializes from task, you > would not be able to specialize from learningContent. You'd need to > specialization a new branch off of task. > > The other angle here is that we enabled learningContent to include nested > topics of other types, including task, concept, and reference. This enables > you to create a learning content topic with an intro and learning objectives > and other learning-specific elements, and then deliver the content itself as a > task or concept, but in the context of those learning objectives. It looks > like this is the approach SAP has taken in their solution. > > Perhaps this is a topic to revisit post-1.3. > > John > > ___________________________________ > John Hunt, Chair OASIS DITA Learning and Training sub-committee > Senior Technical Content Architect > IBM Collaboration Solutions | User Experience: Design and Information > Excellence > 4205 S. Miami Blvd, Durham, NC 27703 > john_hunt@us.ibm.com <mailto:john_hunt@us.ibm.com> > > > > From: Eliot Kimber <ekimber@rsicms.com <mailto:ekimber@rsicms.com> > > To: "Myers, Mark" <mark.myers@sap.com <mailto:mark.myers@sap.com> >, > "dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> " > <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> > > Date: 06/10/2013 10:10 AM > Subject: Re: [dita-learningspec] RE: Whither learningPractice? > Sent by: <dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org > <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> > > > > > > > > > > I was actually looking for the topicref, not necessarily a topic type, > although I kind of expected the topic type. > > I think it makes sense to use task as a base. If memory serves now that I > think about it, one of my arguments for relaxing the task model in 1.2 was > to enable construction of exercises that were not formal lists of steps, but > just a description of what to do. > > I think I would still want to specialize from task to make an exercise topic > and be able to do things like name the substeps "exerciseSolution" or > similar. > > Cheers, > > E. > > On 6/10/13 9:36 AM, "Myers, Mark" <mark.myers@sap.com > <mailto:mark.myers@sap.com> > wrote: > >> Hi Eliot, >> >> I can't speak about the learningPractice, that discussion predates my >> involvement with the SC. >> >> I can offer a recommendation though based on SAP's approach. We also need to >> create exercises and solutions in our training content. We use the task >> element. We specialized it as "Exercise" but otherwise it is just like task. >> >> We have authors write the tasks using the steps element to contain general >> instructions and the substeps element to contain the detailed step-by-step >> actions a user would take to complete the general instructions. >> >> So for example, general instruction go here: >> >> /learningContent/task/taskbody/steps/step >> >> The detailed action a user needs to do to complete that instruction go >> beneath >> the step in a substeps element like this: >> >> /learningContent/task/taskbody/steps/step/substeps/substep >> >> When we publish our handbooks, we publish each task twice: first labeled as >> an >> "exercise" which includes the steps and omits the substeps, the again labeled >> as a "solution" which include both the steps and substeps. >> >> I attached a screen shot from our instructor handbook as an example. >> >> We also follow this approach for learning assessments, we publish once with >> no >> answers indicated and then again with the answers indicated. >> >> If you want to see the sources or other examples just let me know. >> >> Cheers, >> Mark >> >> >> Mark Myers >> Knowledge Transfer Architect, Production Platform Management and Operations >> Knowledge Productization Services >> SAP America, Inc. >> 3999 West Chester Pike >> Newtown Square, PA 19073 USA >> T 1-610-661-5823 >> F 1-610-661-5824 >> M 1-484-802-1809 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org >> <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> >> [mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org >> <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> ] On Behalf Of Eliot Kimber >> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2013 3:18 PM >> To: dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org >> <mailto:dita-learningspec@lists.oasis-open.org> >> Subject: [dita-learningspec] Whither learningPractice? >> >> I notice that John Hunt and Robert Bernard's 2005 paper >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita9a/ >> <http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-dita9a/> includes a >> "learningPractice" topic type (or, more generally, major section of a >> course, parallel with learningOverview, learningSummary, etc.) >> >> However, we don't have a learningPractice topic type or map type in the 1.2 >> L&T specialization. >> >> Was that a deliberate decision or does the 2005 paper reflect later thinking >> after the 1.2 L&T design was finalized? >> >> I'm looking for how to organize "exercises" for an instructor-led course and >> learningPractice is just the thing. >> >> Of course, I can create my own specializations but I was curious as to why >> there's no obvious accommodation for exercises in the 1.2 L&T design. >> >> Cheers, >> >> E. >> >> -- >> Eliot Kimber >> Senior Solutions Architect, RSI Content Solutions >> "Bringing Strategy, Content, and Technology Together" >> Main: 512.554.9368 >> www.rsicms.com <www.rsicms.com> >> www.rsuitecms.com <www.rsuitecms.com> >> Book: DITA For Practitioners, from XML Press, >> http://xmlpress.net/publications/dita/practitioners-1/ >> <http://xmlpress.net/publications/dita/practitioners-1/> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> <https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php> >> -- Eliot Kimber Senior Solutions Architect | RSI Content Solutions Work: 512.554.9368 <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sj4qT8sH42s> Web: http://www.rsicms.com Book: DITA For Practitioners, from XML Press, http://xmlpress.net/publications/dita/practitioners-1/
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