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Subject: RE: [dita-translation] Changes to documentation of xml:lang and translate attributes
Thank you all for your input. I'm replying to all comments in a single email to make it easier to follow this thread and where we're going... Here are new proposals for the two attributes based on all the feedback I've received to-date, as well as our discussions during Monday's SC meeting. My previous proposal kept the original descriptions in the current spec as much as possible, and I'm glad I received the reactions I did (e.g. English being the default language -- I felt uneasy about that one too). I took the default values from the spec, which I now see confused everyone; I've changed them to reflect their usage. PROPOSAL FOR translate ATTRIBUTE: Name: translate Description: Indicates whether the content of the element should be translated or not. The translate attribute setting applies to the element on which it is set, and is inherited by all child elements that do not specify the translate attribute. The translate attribute does not indicate whether attribute values of the element and its children should be translated; attribute values should never be translated. If this attribute is not specified on the document element, then processors must assume translate="yes". Data Type: yes | no Default Value: Not set Required: #IMPLIED PROPOSAL FOR xml:lang ATTRIBUTE: Name: xml:lang Description: Specifies the language and locale of the element content. The intent declared with xml:lang is considered to apply to all attributes and content of the element where it is specified, unless overridden with an instance of xml:lang on another element within that content. When no xml:lang value is supplied, the processor should assume a default value. This attribute must be set to a language identifier, as defined by IETF RFC 3066 (http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3066.txt) or successor. Data Type: NMTOKEN Default Value: Not set Required: #IMPLIED Best Regards, Gershon -----Original Message----- From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org] Sent: Friday, March 03, 2006 2:14 AM To: Robert D Anderson Cc: gershon@tech-tav.com; bhertz@sdl.com; 'Bryan Schnabel'; Charles Pau; 'Lieske, Christian'; Dave A Schell; dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org; dpooley@sdl.com; 'Richard Ishida'; 'Jennifer Linton'; mambrose@sdl.com; patrickk@scriptware.nl; pcarey@lexmark.com; Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com; rfletcher@sdl.com; Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com; tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com; 'Yves Savourel' Subject: Re: [dita-translation] Changes to documentation of xml:lang and translate attributes Hi Robert, all, Sorry for the sporadic participation. Below I have some comments. Robert D Anderson wrote: > Hi Gershon, > > I think it looks good, I just wanted to clarify a few points: > 1. For translate, it says that the default is no. I just wanted to > clarify that this is a processing default, rather than one set in the > DTD or Schema. If the value for every element is defaulted to "no" in > the doctype, then when you read the file in to a parser it will appear > that the value is set everywhere. So, this would prevent the value from inheriting. > > 2. For the first sentence of the xml:lang description, we should > indicate that it is not only for the language, it also sets the > locale. I'd suggest either "Specifies the locale of the element > content." > or > "Specifies the language and locale of the element content." There are problems with combining locale to language identification: <p xml:lang="en-US">A beer in Germany costs <ptr value="5"/>.</p> The @value should be spelled out as "5 Euro", but if you map the language "en-US" to a locale, it would be "5 Dollar". So what you need here is a separation between language and locale identification. > > I realize that the current spec only uses the term language. I think > this has led to some confusion in the past. > > 3. For xml:lang, I do not think that the spec should explicitly > designate that the default is English. This should probably be up to > the tools. The DITA Open Toolkit sets the default language with a > parameter in the stylesheets, so that it is possible for users to > change the default if needed. If we do want to suggest a default, then > how about something like "When no xml:lang value is supplied and no > external method is used to set a default, the default value of English is assumed." > > I also realize that the current spec already specifies a default of > English, but I've heard people express the desire to set a different > default when authoring in another language. I think this is a very important point. > > 4. I am not sure what is meant by this: > "A list of supported values is given in xml:lang values." > The current spec references ISO-3166 for Country Codes and RFC 3066 > for Language Codes. Different applications (as well as different > specializations) may choose to support only a subset of all languages > (for example, the DITA toolkit supports only 47 of the defined > locales, and warns if users specify values it does not support). Since > DITA was developed, the toolkit has added support for two additional > locales (be-by and uk-ua). If we continue to reference the > authoritative sources, then our description will remain current and > correct at all times, even as new locales are created and new tool support is added. The value of xml:lang is RFC 3066 or its successor, see http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml/#sec-lang-tag . RFC 3066, see http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3066.txt , defines as the first subtag 2-letter subtags as ISO 639 part 1 language codes, and 3-letter subtags as ISO 639 part 1 language codes. As the second subtag, 2-letter are ISO 3166 country codes. It might be useful to mention these sources directly. There is also a successor or RFC 3066, see http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-ltru-registry-14.txt . It is 100% backward compatibly with RFC 3066, but allows also for specifying new kinds of subtags (esp. for script, region and variant). That might be worth mentioning. Regards, Felix > > Thanks- > > Robert D Anderson > IBM Authoring Tools Development > Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit > > > > "Gershon L > Joseph" > <gershon@tech-tav To > .com> <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open. > org>, <mambrose@sdl.com>, > 03/02/2006 01:22 <pcarey@lexmark.com>, > PM <rfletcher@sdl.com>, > <bhertz@sdl.com>, "'Richard > Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, > Please respond to <tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator. > gershon com>, <patrickk@scriptware.nl>, > "'Lieske, Christian'" > <christian.lieske@sap.com>, > "'Jennifer Linton'" > <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, > <Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com>, > Charles Pau/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus, > <dpooley@sdl.com>, > <Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com>, > "'Felix Sasaki'" <fsasaki@w3.org>, > "'Yves Savourel'" > <ysavourel@translate.com>, Dave A > Schell/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS, "'Bryan > Schnabel'" > <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com> > > cc > > Subject > [dita-translation] Changes to > documentation of xml:lang and > translate attributes > > > > > > > > > > > Hi all, > > In light of feedback we received from Felix, I'd like to propose the > following documentation changes for the translate and xml:lang > attributes, to keep the DITA spec synchronized with the W3C ITC spec > on the use of these attributes. > > Name: translate > > Description: Indicates whether the content of the element should be > translated or not. The translate attribute setting applies to the > element on which it is set, and is inherited by all child elements > that do not specify the translate attribute. The translate attribute > does not indicate whether attribute values of the element and its > children should be translated; attribute values should never be > translated. > > Data Type: yes | no > > Default Value: boolean: no > > Required: #IMPLIED > > > Name: xml:lang > > Description: Specifies the language of the element content. When no > xml:lang value is supplied, the default value of English is assumed. > For example, if there is a note element with the attribute xml:lang > set to the value "es-es," then the label on the note, which is > normally output as "Note" is now output in Spanish as "Nota." A list > of supported values is given in xml:lang values. The xml:lang > attribute setting applies to the element on which it is set, and is > inherited by all child elements that do not specify the xml:lang > attribute. The xml:lang attribute does not indicate a language for > attribute values of the element and its children; attribute values > should never be translated. [Question: Does this mean that DITA > attribute values can only be English? Or if the document element > specifies xml:lang, should attribute values then use that setting and > not English?] > > Data Type: NMTOKEN > > Default Value: boolean: no > > Required: #IMPLIED > > Feedback anyone? I'd like us to approve our changes to the > documentation of these attributes at the Monday meeting, so we can > deliver our documentation change request to the DITA TC next week. > > Best Regards, > Gershon > > --- > Gershon L Joseph > Member, OASIS DITA and DocBook Technical Committees Director of > Technology and Single Sourcing Tech-Tav Documentation Ltd. > office: +972-8-974-1569 > mobile: +972-57-314-1170 > http://www.tech-tav.com > > > >
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