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Subject: Re: [dita-translation] Agenda for DITA Translation SC meeting
Hi Everyone,
If we have the opportunity during today's conference call, I would like
to discuss the issue of subflows within inline elements.
The definition of inline elements for DITA has been a great step
forward. We now need to classify which of the inline elements are in
fact subflows, that is they do not form part of the linguistic text flow
within which they occur. For example footnote text (fn) or index text
(indexterm). For localization it is important to be able to separate
these out during translation and then to be able to put the text back
where appropriate.
Best Regards,
AZ
Gershon L Joseph wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Here's the agenda for today's meeting.
>
> 1. Role call
>
> 2. Approve last week's minutes as sent.
>
> 3. Discuss Translating required-cleanup (pick up from email thread attached)
>
> 4. Pick up our discussion of inline elements. From the minutes of our
> previous meeting 2 weeks ago:
>
> 3) Begin a discussion of the best practices surrounding inline elements.
> - best practice targeted primarily to authors
> - JoAnn asks each member to consider a use case for best practice for
> handling inline elements, e.g. adding index items (immediately
> following text of element) at end of paragraph
> - Nancy -- Insert index items separate from the text flow, but put at
> beginning of paragraph.
> - DISCUSSION about how index markers are associated with the text
> - Italic and bold (and other typographic elements) -- should not be
> used,
> since target languages don't always have them.
> - Discussion on how to handle typographical element in translation
> - SUMMARY -- Semantic inline elements should not cause problems in
> localizations
> - Andrzej - subflows (e.g. index markers) cause problems when being
> translated as part of the string being translated.
> - Discussion...
> --ACTION-- Nancy to start draft of our best practice recommendations,
> and
> everyone to send use case or statement to Nancy during the week,
> especially situations of potential problems like container elements
> around bulleted list or any other area we may run into a problem.
>
>
>
> Best Regards,
> Gershon
>
> ---
> Gershon L Joseph
> Member, OASIS DITA and DocBook Technical Committees
> Director of Technology and Single Sourcing
> Tech-Tav Documentation Ltd.
> office: +972-8-974-1569
> mobile: +972-57-314-1170
> http://www.tech-tav.com
>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> RE: [dita-translation] Translating required-cleanup
> From:
> "Farwell, Kevin" <Kevin.Farwell@lionbridge.com>
> Date:
> Thu, 20 Apr 2006 00:05:41 +0300
> To:
> "Robert D Anderson" <robander@us.ibm.com>,
> <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org>, <mambrose@sdl.com>,
> <pcarey@lexmark.com>, <rfletcher@sdl.com>, <bhertz@sdl.com>, "Richard
> Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>, <tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com>,
> "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com>, "Jennifer Linton"
> <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, "Munshi, Sukumar"
> <Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com>, "Charles Pau" <charles_pau@us.ibm.com>,
> <dpooley@sdl.com>, "Reynolds, Peter" <Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com>,
> "Felix Sasaki" <fsasaki@w3.org>, "Yves Savourel"
> <ysavourel@translate.com>, "Dave A Schell" <dschell@us.ibm.com>, "Bryan
> Schnabel" <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, "Don Day" <dond@us.ibm.com>
>
> To:
> "Robert D Anderson" <robander@us.ibm.com>,
> <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org>, <mambrose@sdl.com>,
> <pcarey@lexmark.com>, <rfletcher@sdl.com>, <bhertz@sdl.com>, "Richard
> Ishida" <ishida@w3.org>, <tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com>,
> "Lieske, Christian" <christian.lieske@sap.com>, "Jennifer Linton"
> <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, "Munshi, Sukumar"
> <Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com>, "Charles Pau" <charles_pau@us.ibm.com>,
> <dpooley@sdl.com>, "Reynolds, Peter" <Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com>,
> "Felix Sasaki" <fsasaki@w3.org>, "Yves Savourel"
> <ysavourel@translate.com>, "Dave A Schell" <dschell@us.ibm.com>, "Bryan
> Schnabel" <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, "Don Day" <dond@us.ibm.com>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> I wonder if this is more a development/localization process question.
> According to the reference, "As the element name implies, the intent for
> authors is to clean up the contained material and eventually get rid of
> the <required-cleanup> element." and "Because the content of
> <required-cleanup> is not considered to be verified data..." I take
> those to mean the content needs editing, even if that's only tag or
> attribute editing. I wouldn't think such content even be a candidate for
> translation. I would expect it to be looping through some editorial
> process. In the example below, the paragraph that has unverified data
> should not be translated either. Assuming the content is correct, the
> tagging errors would be propagated over the whole language set. Assuming
> it isn't, both tagging errors and content errors are multiplied.
>
> If it should make it out the door, I would take option one. That would
> force people to choose to get risky content translated.
>
> Kevin
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robert D Anderson [mailto:robander@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 7:31 AM
> To: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org; mambrose@sdl.com;
> pcarey@lexmark.com; rfletcher@sdl.com; bhertz@sdl.com; 'Richard Ishida';
> tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com; 'Lieske, Christian'; 'Jennifer
> Linton'; Munshi, Sukumar; Charles Pau; dpooley@sdl.com; Reynolds, Peter;
> 'Felix Sasaki'; 'Yves Savourel'; Dave A Schell; 'Bryan Schnabel'; Don
> Day
> Subject: [dita-translation] Translating required-cleanup
>
>
> This question has come up a couple of times outside of the list, so I'd
> like this group to address it:
>
> The definition of the translate attribute indicates that it applies to
> the current element and all nested elements, unless or until the value
> changes in a nested element. We also have conventions that
> <draft-comment> and <required-cleanup> should not be translated by
> default, because they are not included in the output.
>
> My understanding is that if a user places translate="yes" on a
> required-cleanup element, this means that it should be translated. In
> this case, the user knows best - the contents will be used for some
> purpose, and should be translated.
>
> What about this case?
> <p translate="yes"> ...translatable text ...
> <required-cleanup> text in here </required-cleanup> </p>
>
>>From the definition of @translate, it seems that requried-cleanup will
> inherit translate="yes", making it translatable. It also seems that, in
> most cases, this is not the desired behavior. I'm wary of making this an
> exception to the rule, though, because exceptions just make DITA more
> difficult to implement.
>
> I think what's actually wanted is that required-cleanup should have a
> default setting of translate="no", set within the DTDs and schemas. This
> means that the only way to make it translatable is to explicitly set the
> attribute on the element. Specializations that are used for translatable
> content, such as <reusableContent>, could change the default to "yes"
> for that element.
>
> What do others think? I think to clear up the confusion, we have to do
> one of the following (I would vote for the first):
> 1. Give required-cleanup and draft-comment a default of @translate="no"
> 2. Clarify that the current @translate behavior always applies - it even
> inherits for elements that do not usually get translated 3. Provide a
> list of exceptions where @translate does not inherit
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Robert D Anderson
> IBM Authoring Tools Development
> Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
> (507) 253-8787, T/L 553-8787
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Subject:
> [dita-translation] Translating required-cleanup
> From:
> "Robert D Anderson" <robander@us.ibm.com>
> Date:
> Wed, 19 Apr 2006 16:31:22 +0300
> To:
> <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org>, <mambrose@sdl.com>,
> <pcarey@lexmark.com>, <rfletcher@sdl.com>, <bhertz@sdl.com>, "'Richard
> Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, <tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com>,
> "'Lieske, Christian'" <christian.lieske@sap.com>, "'Jennifer Linton'"
> <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, "'Munshi, Sukumar'"
> <Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com>, "Charles Pau" <charles_pau@us.ibm.com>,
> <dpooley@sdl.com>, "'Reynolds, Peter'" <Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com>,
> "'Felix Sasaki'" <fsasaki@w3.org>, "'Yves Savourel'"
> <ysavourel@translate.com>, "Dave A Schell" <dschell@us.ibm.com>, "'Bryan
> Schnabel'" <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, "Don Day" <dond@us.ibm.com>
>
> To:
> <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org>, <mambrose@sdl.com>,
> <pcarey@lexmark.com>, <rfletcher@sdl.com>, <bhertz@sdl.com>, "'Richard
> Ishida'" <ishida@w3.org>, <tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com>,
> "'Lieske, Christian'" <christian.lieske@sap.com>, "'Jennifer Linton'"
> <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, "'Munshi, Sukumar'"
> <Sukumar.Munshi@lionbridge.com>, "Charles Pau" <charles_pau@us.ibm.com>,
> <dpooley@sdl.com>, "'Reynolds, Peter'" <Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com>,
> "'Felix Sasaki'" <fsasaki@w3.org>, "'Yves Savourel'"
> <ysavourel@translate.com>, "Dave A Schell" <dschell@us.ibm.com>, "'Bryan
> Schnabel'" <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, "Don Day" <dond@us.ibm.com>
>
>
> This question has come up a couple of times outside of the list, so I'd
> like this group to address it:
>
> The definition of the translate attribute indicates that it applies to the
> current element and all nested elements, unless or until the value changes
> in a nested element. We also have conventions that <draft-comment> and
> <required-cleanup> should not be translated by default, because they are
> not included in the output.
>
> My understanding is that if a user places translate="yes" on a
> required-cleanup element, this means that it should be translated. In this
> case, the user knows best - the contents will be used for some purpose, and
> should be translated.
>
> What about this case?
> <p translate="yes"> ...translatable text ...
> <required-cleanup> text in here </required-cleanup>
> </p>
>
>>From the definition of @translate, it seems that requried-cleanup will
> inherit translate="yes", making it translatable. It also seems that, in
> most cases, this is not the desired behavior. I'm wary of making this an
> exception to the rule, though, because exceptions just make DITA more
> difficult to implement.
>
> I think what's actually wanted is that required-cleanup should have a
> default setting of translate="no", set within the DTDs and schemas. This
> means that the only way to make it translatable is to explicitly set the
> attribute on the element. Specializations that are used for translatable
> content, such as <reusableContent>, could change the default to "yes" for
> that element.
>
> What do others think? I think to clear up the confusion, we have to do one
> of the following (I would vote for the first):
> 1. Give required-cleanup and draft-comment a default of @translate="no"
> 2. Clarify that the current @translate behavior always applies - it even
> inherits for elements that do not usually get translated
> 3. Provide a list of exceptions where @translate does not inherit
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Thanks-
>
> Robert D Anderson
> IBM Authoring Tools Development
> Chief Architect, DITA Open Toolkit
> (507) 253-8787, T/L 553-8787
>
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