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Subject: FW: help with dita-translation message
Here is a note from Bruce Esrig regarding the ITS specification. Please review and we will discuss this morning. Gershon cannot be on the call, so we will not discuss his proposed best practice for translation memory until next week. JoAnn T. Hackos, PhD President Comtech Services, Inc. 710 Kipling Street, Suite 400 Denver, CO 80215 303-232-7586 joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com joannhackos Skype www.comtech-serv.com -----Original Message----- From: Esrig, Bruce (Bruce) [mailto:esrig@lucent.com] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 7:06 AM To: 'Andrzej Zydron'; JoAnn Hackos Subject: FW: help with dita-translation message JoAnn or Andrzej, could you re-post since I'm not a subscriber? Bruce -----Original Message----- From: MAILER-DAEMON@mail.oasis-open.org [mailto:MAILER-DAEMON@mail.oasis-open.org] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 9:04 AM To: esrig@lucent.com Subject: failure notice Hi. This is the qmail-send program at mail.oasis-open.org. I'm afraid I wasn't able to deliver your message to the following addresses. This is a permanent error; I've given up. Sorry it didn't work out. <dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org>: Sorry, only subscribers may post. If you are a subscriber, please forward this message to admin@lists.oasis-open.org to get your new address included (#5.7.2) --- Below this line is a copy of the message. Return-Path: <esrig@lucent.com> Received: (qmail 23663 invoked by uid 60881); 12 Jun 2006 13:03:49 -0000 Received: from esrig@lucent.com by hermes by uid 0 with qmail-scanner-1.15 (clamscan: 0.88.2. spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:SA:0(2.0/5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no ):. Processed in 1.223274 secs); 12 Jun 2006 13:03:49 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO hoemail1.lucent.com) (192.11.226.161) by mail.oasis-open.org with SMTP; 12 Jun 2006 13:03:48 -0000 Received: from nj0117exch001p.wins.lucent.com (h135-5-177-157.lucent.com [135.5.177.157]) by hoemail1.lucent.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id k5CD3IKY025856; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 08:03:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: by nj0117exch001p.wh.lucent.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) id <MPDNPZFW>; Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:03:18 -0400 Message-ID: <9B457B1322AAAE46BD5E693C02842C1D098AD4FD@nj0117exch002u.wh.lucent.com> From: "Esrig, Bruce (Bruce)" <esrig@lucent.com> To: "'Andrzej Zydron'" <azydron@xml-intl.com>, JoAnn Hackos <joann.hackos@comtech-serv.com> Cc: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org, cwong@idiominc.com, mambrose@sdl.com, bhertz@sdl.com, Bryan Schnabel <bryan.s.schnabel@tek.com>, charles_pau@us.ibm.com, christian.lieske@sap.com, dpooley@sdl.com, dschell@us.ibm.com, "Esrig, Bruce (Bruce)" <esrig@lucent.com>, fsasaki@w3.org, rfletcher@sdl.com, "Howard.Schwartz" <Howard.Schwartz@trados.com>, Jennifer Linton <jennifer.linton@comtech-serv.com>, Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com, ishida@w3.org, tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com, KARA@CA.IBM.COM, ysavourel@translate.com, "'Erik Hennum'" <ehennum@us.ibm.com> Subject: RE: [dita-translation] DITA SC Agenda Monday 12 2006 Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2006 09:03:09 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2657.72) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.64 (2004-01-11) on hermes.oasis-open.org X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, hits=2.0 required=5.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.64 Apologies in advance for writing in such a heavy style ... I'm catching up on background thoughts that many of you already know and have discussed, and then talking about implications for DITA. A shortest-possible response to Andrzej's example would be that it appears that DITA source markup might need an explicit indicator for case, for use in translations. After reading the minutes and the ITS spec discussion of terminology http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/#terms ... The terminology markup in the ITS spec permits but does not require term references that are more nearly translation-invariant. Would there be someone who could write a use case that could be added to the ITS spec. The use case would be based on the ideas in the next paragraph(s) to emphasize the best practice (when adequate supporting tools are available)? The infoTermRef and alternatively the infoTermRefPointer attributes could best be used to point to locations where all information about a term occurrence appears: - the surface text of the occurrence in various languages and cases - definitions of the term in various languages - abbreviations and initialisms associated with the term The prevalent practice in DITA of making termbases that you can conref from does not result in translation-invariant source, as Andrzej's example shows. A best practice for DITA language design would be to abandon the view that the author can specify the term occurrence, and instead ask the author to specify how the processing system should build the term occurrence. Because of the familiarity of the simpler approach (authors specify the terms that they would like to have used), the best practice might need to be done in a language extension, leaving the existing mechanisms for use by projects that don't mind language-dependent source. This is consistent with the principle that XML is founded on markup with meaning. With regard to terminology, we should be using a pointer, not the surface form of a term, as an identifier for the intended sense. We then need further support in order to convert from the intended sense to the desired surface form. The DITA markup that builds an occurrence in an arbitrary target language would specify what part of an entry in an idealized term base to extract, such as the surface text of the term, in a particular case, in a particular language. Or alternatively, the abbreviation or initialism associated with the term on a particular project, in a particular case, in a particular language. Best wishes, Bruce Esrig -----Original Message----- From: Andrzej Zydron [mailto:azydron@xml-intl.com] Sent: Monday, June 12, 2006 3:11 AM To: JoAnn Hackos Cc: dita-translation@lists.oasis-open.org; cwong@idiominc.com; mambrose@sdl.com; bhertz@sdl.com; Bryan Schnabel; charles_pau@us.ibm.com; christian.lieske@sap.com; dpooley@sdl.com; dschell@us.ibm.com; esrig@lucent.com; fsasaki@w3.org; rfletcher@sdl.com; Howard.Schwartz; Jennifer Linton; Peter.Reynolds@lionbridge.com; ishida@w3.org; tony.jewtushenko@productinnovator.com; KARA@CA.IBM.COM; ysavourel@translate.com Subject: Re: [dita-translation] DITA SC Agenda Monday 12 2006 Hi Everybody, The following is an example of the use of an inline conref that could result in a grammatically incorrect target version of the sentence: <p>Using a <term conref="termbase#e304bc"/><!-- hydraulic lift --> raise the vehicle from the ground.</p> Although this example would work perfectly well for non-inflected languages such as English or French, it would produce ungrammatical text for any inflected language that requires an instrumentive form such as most Slavonic languages. Best Regards, AZ -- email - azydron@xml-intl.com smail - c/o Mr. A.Zydron PO Box 2167 Gerrards Cross Bucks SL9 8XF United Kingdom Mobile +(44) 7966 477 181 FAX +(44) 1753 480 465 www - http://www.xml-intl.com This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you may not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. E-mail transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the contents of this message which arise as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required please request a hard-copy version. 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