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Subject: RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements


Hi, France:

I can't contest your points or your general preference for specialization over free-form attribute values.

But, many adopters don't have the skills to define their own specializations in DTD or Schema. For those users, lightweight extension via attribute values offers a way to express and refine a design until they're ready to engage consulting help to roll out the design generally as a specialization.


Erik Hennum
ehennum@us.ibm.com


Inactive hide details for "France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>"France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>


          "France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>

          06/13/2006 11:40 AM


To

Erik Hennum/Oakland/IBM@IBMUS, <dita@lists.oasis-open.org>

cc


Subject

RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements

Isn't the mechanism a little risky since there is no validation on possible values from the DTD (typos happen all the time)? Moreover, there is no way to control where and when these are allowed to be used or to force people to use them. Shouldn't we be afraid of inconsistencies?

Specialization takes less then a day. Cleaning up after a false specialization may take much longer and you need to create XSL and/or CSS for both if you actually want to use them. I'm not sure I get the use case.

France (the skeptic) Baril


From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent:
June 13, 2006 1:20 PM
To:
France Baril
Cc:
dita@lists.oasis-open.org; Grosso, Paul
Subject:
RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements

Hi, France:

Your concern makes sense -- it creates a problem if writers use the outputclass attribute for presentation, as in:

<p outputclass="Palatino12pt">...</p>

It is also possible, however, to use the outputclass attribute for informal semantic extension, as in:

<p outputclass="background">...</p>

Making such informal extension available to adopters seems pragmatic (though, in retrospect, the attribute name would be better if it prompted this approach).

In passing, that's a good way to mock up and evaluate a potential specialization - by creating an instance in the base type with outputclass attributes indicating the proposed specialized elements.


Hoping that's useful,


Erik Hennum
ehennum@us.ibm.com


Inactive hide details for "France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>"France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>

                  "France Baril" <France.Baril@ixiasoft.com>

                  06/13/2006 08:53 AM

To

<dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc

Erik Hennum/Oakland/IBM@IBMUS, "Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>
Subject

RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements

I'm with Paul on this, it makes me very nervous too, but not because it's HTML only.


My reason is that having CSS information in the content means that you can never redesign the HTML style completely or use CSS that don't have that class defined. I wonder if the proposal should not be to remove this attribute from topics instead of adding it to maps.


I'm aware this could cause issues with backward compatibity, but it could prevent other issues for users down the road.


Moreover, shouldn't most writers be completely ignorant of the CSS definitions?


France Baril

Documentation Architect/Architecte documentaire

IXIASOFT

tel.: + 1 514 279-4942 (new extension number 350)
+ 1 877 279-IXIA (new extension number 350)
fax: + 1 514 279-3947

france.baril@ixiasoft.com
[
www.ixiasoft.com ]

Let's Talk
XML




From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent:
June 7, 2006 1:57 PM
To:
Grosso, Paul
Cc:
dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:
RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements

Hi, Paul:

To clarify, the outputclass attribute is available on the topic elements in DITA 1.0. The attribute should have been provided on the DITA map elements as well -- hence the bug fix.

The outputclass attribute really fills a role similar to the DocBook role attribute. Where the output format has a concept of class or role (as with HTML), the outputclass can be copied into the output, but its primary purpose is to provide informal semantic extension rather than stuff names into the HTML class attribute.

The attribute could have a better name.


Erik Hennum
ehennum@us.ibm.com


Inactive hide details for "Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>"Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>
                                  "Grosso, Paul" <pgrosso@ptc.com>

                                  06/07/2006 07:24 AM

To

<dita@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc
Subject

RE: [dita] outputclass on map elements

It makes me nervous to embed HTML-only stuff in the DITA model.

How do you propose to treat this attribute for print/pdf output? How do you propose to write up this attribute in the spec in an output-independent fashion that still remains useful?

paul



From: Erik Hennum [mailto:ehennum@us.ibm.com]
Sent:
Tuesday, 2006 June 06 17:01
To:
dita@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject:
[dita] outputclass on map elements

Hi, Esteemed Technical Committee:

The 1.1 bug list (
http://wiki.oasis-open.org/dita/Bug_fixes_for_DITA_1%2e1#preview) has an item that never received final disposition -- adding the outputclass attribute to the map elements (<map>, <topicref>, <navref>, <anchor>, and <reltable>):

http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/dita/200602/msg00082.html

To recap, the outputclass attribute assigns an informal role to an element. As such, outputclass is quite useful for extending the semantic without formal specialization. For instance, you can use outputclass to mock up a specialization in the base document type or to create handles for custom processing. Typical output processing for HTML copies the outputclass into the class attribute so users can create custom CSS styling.

Currently, outputclass is only available on topic elements and not on map elements. As a result, you can't easily mock up a map specialization or provide handles for custom map processing.

The main implication of map outputclass for the base output processing would seem to be to collect the outputclass values for the topicref and provide them on the outermost wrapper of the HTML content for the topic. The latter enhancement would let users style a topic in CSS based on the role played by a topic within a map.

The outputclass attribute is close to being a universal attribute -- it applies to a similarly large list of elements and merits similar treatment. I'd like to request that we finalize this bug fix at the next meeting.


Thanks,


Erik Hennum
ehennum@us.ibm.com

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