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Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
Thanks John - that clears it up. ebMS v3, not ebXML v3. I now retract my original observation. :) Kind Regards, Joseph Chiusano Booz Allen Hamilton Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > -----Original Message----- > From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:01 AM > To: Matthew MacKenzie > Cc: Chiusano Joseph; David Webber (XML); Monica J. Martin; > Duane Nickull; dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; > jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; tony.scott@gm.com; > john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; > tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > OK, I am now learning to be very specific. I am referring to ebMS v3. > > Matthew MacKenzie wrote: > > John, > > > > Where did this vision come from? I didn't get the memo. > Certainly, > > the ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that > direction, > > but I don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward > that vision. > > > > -matt > > > > Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > >> Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public > information > >> on this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable > >> information. > >> > >> Kind Regards, > >> Joseph Chiusano > >> Booz Allen Hamilton > >> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] Sent: > >>> Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM > >>> To: David Webber (XML) > >>> Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; > >>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; > >>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > >>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > golsen@contivo.com; John > >>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; > >>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark > >>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > >>> > >>> That would be the list, thanks David. > >>> Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to > >>> encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other WS* > >>> specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious > point is that > >>> we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the other side.... > >>> > >>> john > >>> > >>> David Webber (XML) wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> Joe, > >>>> > >>>> That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!! > >>>> > >>>> We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated > architecture > >>>> that documents the new capabilities that all this enables. > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, DW > >>>> > >>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>> From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > >>>> To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica > J. Martin" > >>>> <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber" > >>> > >>> <david@drrw.info>; "Duane > >>> > >>>> Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; > >>>> <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; > >>>> <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; > >>> > >>> <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; > >>> > >>>> <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" > >>>> <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; > >>>> <tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; > >>> > >>> "James Bryce Clark" > >>> > >>> > >>>> <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> > >>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM > >>>> Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> <Quote> > >>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is > >>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote> > >>>> > >>>> Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is? > >>>> > >>>> Thanks, > >>>> Joe > >>>> > >>>> Joseph Chiusano > >>>> Booz Allen Hamilton > >>>> Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] > >>>>> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM > >>>>> To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull; > >>>>> dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; > >>>>> tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > >>>>> ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > >>> > >>> golsen@contivo.com; John > >>> > >>>>> Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; > >>>>> ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark > >>>>> Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome. > >>>>> > >>>>> I have copied a number of folks on this, because I > would like to > >>>>> enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing > activities or > >>> > >>> just for > >>> > >>>>> ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about > >>>>> addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good > conversation with Jamie > >>>>> the other night, and got some direction from both him and > >>> > >>> from Duane. > >>> > >>>>> I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get a > >>>>> braindump how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll > plan on being > >>>>> on the call next Wed if allowed. > >>>>> > >>>>> My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward > >>> > >>> with the work > >>> > >>>>> from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a facilitator > >>>>> towards > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> interoperability among the upcoming business process > >>> > >>> frameworks (WS*, > >>> > >>>>> ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain > dominance). The > >>>>> request-response model is a very simplistic view that > isn't > >>> > >>> currently > >>> > >>>>> mapping well onto the true complexity that large > industries have > >>>>> developed in their shared business processes. For > example, > >>> > >>> no one will > >>> > >>>>> argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive > >>> > >>> industry is a > >>> > >>>>> request-response model between two partners. Healthcare > is another > >>>>> area that is very complex, and requires multiple > >>> > >>> interactions between > >>> > >>>>> large numbers of process participants to complete the > information > >>>>> exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution. > >>>>> > >>>>> The other reality is that process participants require constant > >>>>> realtime feeds of information from many points in the > >>> > >>> process, which > >>> > >>>>> are owned and offered by various companies of various > sizes and IT > >>>>> capabilities. > >>>>> This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network > operating > >>>>> framework, where processes run in an "app fabric" > >>>>> that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer event > >>>>> causation techniques and other things like shared > industry process > >>>>> B.A.M. on top. The network REALLY IS the computer.... > >>>>> > >>>>> To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that > we need to: > >>>>> > >>>>> a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps > (ebXML v3 is > >>>>> closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) > >>>>> > >>>>> b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize, > real world use > >>>>> cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and > >>> > >>> shine a light > >>> > >>>>> on successful implementations > >>>>> > >>>>> c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with SemWeb and > >>>>> agent patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the > SemWeb/Agent stuff > >>>>> is the long-term target) > >>>>> > >>>>> d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have > consistent > >>>>> direction towards convergence > >>>>> > >>>>> My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the > >>> > >>> verge of a > >>> > >>>>> major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The > >>> > >>> potential of > >>> > >>>>> the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's > >>> > >>> potential is > >>> > >>>>> more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it, > >>> > >>> business has > >>> > >>>>> been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all > >>> > >>> want to build > >>> > >>>>> it. > >>>>> > >>>>> However, this level of information integration won't > happen unless: > >>>>> > >>>>> a) the path to implementation of standards based > messaging between > >>>>> partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear > >>>>> > >>>>> b) all players involved in complex processes can participate > >>>>> > >>>>> c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, > drawn out > >>>>> mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the > entire > >>> > >>> movement) > >>> > >>> > >>>>> The industry will continue to stall until we solve some > of these > >>>>> problems. I would like to help by completing the > patterns and the > >>>>> catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to > describe > >>> > >>> it. There > >>> > >>>>> also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry > >>> > >>> groups that > >>> > >>>>> are building shared business processes (which by the way, look > >>>>> much more complex than simple request-response models). > >>>>> > >>>>> That's it, I guess.... > >>>>> > >>>>> John > >>>>> 313.930.5323 > >>>>> > >>>>> Monica J. Martin wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> John, > >>>>>> On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> MacKenzie was > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc. Perhaps you > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> could provide > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC > based on its > >>>>>> original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an > update > >>> > >>> on ebSOA > >>> > >>>>>> and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> ebSOA would > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> assist in defining the next generation architecture > for > >>> > >>> ebXML. Your > >>> > >>>>>> thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> ~~~~~~~~~ > >>>>> john c hardin > >>>>> sanghainteractive.com > >>>>> 313.930.5323 cell > >>>>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com > >>>>> > >>>>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world > in > >>> > >>> the image > >>> > >>>>> of a global village." > >>>>> > >>>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> ~~~~~~~~~ > >>> john c hardin > >>> sanghainteractive.com > >>> 313.930.5323 cell > >>> mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com > >>> > >>> "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world > in the image > >>> of a global village." > >>> > >>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~ > john c hardin > sanghainteractive.com > 313.930.5323 cell > mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com > > "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in > the image of a global village." > > Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > > >
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