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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin
Joe, It was only supposed to be a 90 day list -so I think we've all probably been dropped!?! "Recent" is a relative publishing term - when we've been working this for 5+ years now!! Cheers, DW ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> To: "David Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>; "Matthew MacKenzie" <mattm@adobe.com> Cc: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica J. Martin" <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "Duane Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; <ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" <johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; <tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "James Bryce Clark" <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:20 AM Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > -----Original Message----- > From: David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info] > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 10:17 AM > To: Matthew MacKenzie; Chiusano Joseph > Cc: john hardin; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; > dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; > tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; > tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > Matt, > > If I could finger-point anywhere - it would be the recent > discussions over on the OASIS ebXML Adoption discussion list Recent? The latest e-mail I have from that list is on Mon 1/17/2005 1:18 PM :) - that is, unless I was inadvertently dropped from it. Kind Regards, Joseph Chiusano Booz Allen Hamilton Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > > - there's a whole raft of other related "to do"s hanging from > that set of interchanges, and something of an expectation > that has been set there - but not yet fulfilled. > > From the marketing-heads perspective - they always want to be > able to put a box around the parts and sell it as a Vx.xx of Y. > > DW > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Matthew MacKenzie" <mattm@adobe.com> > To: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > Cc: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "David Webber (XML)" > <david@drrw.info>; "Monica J. Martin" > <Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "Duane Nickull" > <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; > <jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; > <john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; > <ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; <ronschuldt@msn.com>; > <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" <johnc@mbproject.org>; > <mjyader@comcast.net>; <tdean@criticaltech.net>; > <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; "James Bryce Clark" > <jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:51 AM > Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > > > John, > > > > Where did this vision come from? I didn't get the memo. > Certainly, the > > ebMS team has communicated and moved our work in that > direction, but I > > don't see other ebStandards explicitly moving toward that vision. > > > > -matt > > > > Chiusano Joseph wrote: > > > > >Sounds great - where can I get more OASIS-official public > information on > > >this? And also on ebXML v2? This is highly useful and valuable > > >information. > > > > > >Kind Regards, > > >Joseph Chiusano > > >Booz Allen Hamilton > > >Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>-----Original Message----- > > >>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] > > >>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 9:30 AM > > >>To: David Webber (XML) > > >>Cc: Chiusano Joseph; Monica J. Martin; Duane Nickull; > > >>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; > > >>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > > >>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > > >>golsen@contivo.com; John Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; > > >>tdean@criticaltech.net; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James > Bryce Clark > > >>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > >> > > >>That would be the list, thanks David. > > >>Joe, the ebMS v3 direction has been (and I think still is) to > > >>encompass the WS-I Basic Profile, the WS-Security and other > > >>WS* specs, thereby moving towards convergence. A curious > > >>point is that we don't see that kind of outreach yet from the > > >>other side.... > > >> > > >>john > > >> > > >>David Webber (XML) wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >>>Joe, > > >>> > > >>>That is exactly what we are qualifiying here in ebSOA!!! > > >>> > > >>>We have BPSS V2, ebMS V3, Registey V3 - but no updated > architecture > > >>>that documents the new capabilities that all this enables. > > >>> > > >>>Thanks, DW > > >>> > > >>>----- Original Message ----- > > >>>From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com> > > >>>To: "john hardin" <john@sanghainteractive.com>; "Monica > J. Martin" > > >>><Monica.Martin@Sun.COM>; "David RR Webber" > > >>> > > >>> > > >><david@drrw.info>; "Duane > > >> > > >> > > >>>Nickull" <dnickull@adobe.com>; <dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com>; > > >>><jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com>; <tony.scott@gm.com>; > > >>><john.l.jackson@gm.com>; <psnack@aiag.org>; > > >>> > > >>> > > >><ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com>; > > >> > > >> > > >>><ronschuldt@msn.com>; <golsen@contivo.com>; "John Casillas" > > >>><johnc@mbproject.org>; <mjyader@comcast.net>; > > >>><tdean@criticaltech.net>; <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>; > > >>> > > >>> > > >>"James Bryce Clark" > > >> > > >> > > >>><jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> > > >>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 7:29 AM > > >>>Subject: RE: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > >>> > > >>> > > >>><Quote> > > >>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is > > >>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) </Quote> > > >>> > > >>>Can you please explain what "ebXML v3" is? > > >>> > > >>>Thanks, > > >>>Joe > > >>> > > >>>Joseph Chiusano > > >>>Booz Allen Hamilton > > >>>Strategy and Technology Consultants to the World > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>-----Original Message----- > > >>>>From: john hardin [mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com] > > >>>>Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2005 3:58 AM > > >>>>To: Monica J. Martin; David RR Webber; Duane Nickull; > > >>>>dmoberg@cyclonecommerce.com; jturpin@cyclonecommerce.com; > > >>>>tony.scott@gm.com; john.l.jackson@gm.com; psnack@aiag.org; > > >>>>ron.l.schuldt@lmco.com; ronschuldt@msn.com; > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>golsen@contivo.com; John > > >> > > >> > > >>>>Casillas; mjyader@comcast.net; tdean@criticaltech.net; > > >>>>ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark > > >>>>Subject: Re: [ebsoa] New Chair - John Hardin > > >>>> > > >>>>Thanks Monica and thanks to all for the warm welcome. > > >>>> > > >>>>I have copied a number of folks on this, because I would like to > > >>>>enlist their assistance for the ebSOA editing activities or > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>just for > > >> > > >> > > >>>>ideas as we move forward. Also Jamie and Dale asked me about > > >>>>addressing the ebXML-jc group. I had a good > conversation with Jamie > > >>>>the other night, and got some direction from both him and > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>from Duane. > > >> > > >> > > >>>>I would very much like to address the ebXML-jc, and get > a braindump > > >>>>how the two groups need to dovetail. I'll plan on being > on the call > > >>>>next Wed if allowed. > > >>>> > > >>>>My primary vision for the ebSOA group is to move forward > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>with the work > > >> > > >> > > >>>>from the charter (pattern catalog) and act as a > facilitator towards > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>>interoperability among the upcoming business process > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>frameworks (WS*, > > >> > > >> > > >>>>ebXML and SemWeb are three that are working to gain > dominance). The > > >>>>request-response model is a very simplistic view that isn't > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>currently > > >> > > >> > > >>>>mapping well onto the true complexity that large industries have > > >>>>developed in their shared business processes. For example, > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>no one will > > >> > > >> > > >>>>argue today that inventory visibility for the automotive > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>industry is a > > >> > > >> > > >>>>request-response model between two partners. Healthcare > is another > > >>>>area that is very complex, and requires multiple > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>interactions between > > >> > > >> > > >>>>large numbers of process participants to complete the > information > > >>>>exchange, with forks and decisions during the execution. > > >>>> > > >>>>The other reality is that process participants require constant > > >>>>realtime feeds of information from many points in the > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>process, which > > >> > > >> > > >>>>are owned and offered by various companies of various > sizes and IT > > >>>>capabilities. > > >>>>This spells out, to me at least, the need for a network > operating > > >>>>framework, where processes run in an "app fabric" > > >>>>that is dependable and very open. Then we can layer > event causation > > >>>>techniques and other things like shared industry > process B.A.M. on > > >>>>top. The network REALLY IS the computer.... > > >>>> > > >>>>To accomplish this kind of integration, I believe that > we need to: > > >>>> > > >>>>a) work towards interop between the WS and eb camps (ebXML v3 is > > >>>>closing that gap rapidly - thanks Dale!) > > >>>> > > >>>>b) gather and document, then publish and evangelize, > real world use > > >>>>cases that prove SOA principles using ebXML and WS and > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>shine a light > > >> > > >> > > >>>>on successful implementations > > >>>> > > >>>>c) include both WS* and ebXML patterns, along with > SemWeb and agent > > >>>>patterns (no rocks thrown, please - the SemWeb/Agent > stuff is the > > >>>>long-term target) > > >>>> > > >>>>d) work with WS-I and the specs to ensure that we have > consistent > > >>>>direction towards convergence > > >>>> > > >>>>My belief is that the entire IT industry is poised on the > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>verge of a > > >> > > >> > > >>>>major break in what I think is so far a stagnation. The > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>potential of > > >> > > >> > > >>>>the internet is clear - and everyone is aware that it's > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>potential is > > >> > > >> > > >>>>more than just human readable web pages. We all feel it, > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>business has > > >> > > >> > > >>>>been preparing (somewhat) for it, and the engineers all > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>want to build > > >> > > >> > > >>>>it. > > >>>> > > >>>>However, this level of information integration won't > happen unless: > > >>>> > > >>>>a) the path to implementation of standards based > messaging between > > >>>>partner, or producer/consumer, applications, is very clear > > >>>> > > >>>>b) all players involved in complex processes can participate > > >>>> > > >>>>c) the integration effort doesn't involve such a long, drawn out > > >>>>mapping effort everytime (this kills progress on the entire > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>movement) > > >> > > >> > > >>>>The industry will continue to stall until we solve some of these > > >>>>problems. I would like to help by completing the > patterns and the > > >>>>catalog of patterns, and publish the use cases to describe > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>it. There > > >> > > >> > > >>>>also needs to be a major outreach effort to all industry > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>groups that > > >> > > >> > > >>>>are building shared business processes (which by the > way, look much > > >>>>more complex than simple request-response models). > > >>>> > > >>>>That's it, I guess.... > > >>>> > > >>>>John > > >>>>313.930.5323 > > >>>> > > >>>>Monica J. Martin wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>John, > > >>>>>On a related point (to ebSOA that is), previously Matt > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>MacKenzie was > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>the ebSOA representative to the ebXML-jc. Perhaps you > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>could provide > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>some insight into your overall vision of the ebSOA TC > based on its > > >>>>>original charter. I've asked Jamie Clark to give an update > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>on ebSOA > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>and SOA TC efforts. In the past, it was anticipated that > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>ebSOA would > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>>>assist in defining the next generation architecture for > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>ebXML. Your > > >> > > >> > > >>>>>thoughts would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>-- > > >>>>~~~~~~~~~ > > >>>>john c hardin > > >>>>sanghainteractive.com > > >>>>313.930.5323 cell > > >>>>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com > > >>>> > > >>>>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>the image > > >> > > >> > > >>>>of a global village." > > >>>> > > >>>> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>-- > > >>~~~~~~~~~ > > >>john c hardin > > >>sanghainteractive.com > > >>313.930.5323 cell > > >>mailto:john@sanghainteractive.com > > >> > > >>"The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in > > >>the image of a global village." > > >> > > >> Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > >
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