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Subject: [ebxml-cppa] RE: BPSS to WSDL mapping
First, we have to answer a fundamental question: What are we mapping to
what? Will it be Web Services with some ebXML specifications or ebXML
specifications using WSDL descriptions as input. Put another way, is the
mapping to address the current Web Services audience, which is mostly B2C
or is it to move Web Services toward full B2B? These choices will
determine a lot of the details of the work to be done.
Regards,
Marty
*************************************************************************************
Martin W. Sachs
IBM T. J. Watson Research Center
P. O. B. 704
Yorktown Hts, NY 10598
914-784-7287; IBM tie line 863-7287
Notes address: Martin W Sachs/Watson/IBM
Internet address: mwsachs @ us.ibm.com
*************************************************************************************
|---------+--------------------------------->
| | Cory Casanave |
| | <cory-c@enterprise-com|
| | ponent.com> |
| | |
| | 03/11/2002 06:42 PM |
| | |
|---------+--------------------------------->
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| |
| To: "'Patil, Sanjaykumar'" <spatil@iona.com>, Cory Casanave |
| <cory-c@enterprise-component.com>, "Young, Brian R" <brian.r.young@boeing.com>, OASIS ebxml-cppa |
| <ebxml-cppa@lists.oasis-open.org>, ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org |
| cc: |
| Subject: RE: BPSS to WSDL mapping |
| |
| |
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
If you extend WSDL to capture ALL BPSS semantics, you will get BPSS! We
have a tendency to reproduce the same semantics in multiple
representations.
This is very confusing and expensive for the victims (Oops, I mean
customers
:) but great for tools and infrastructure that map between them.
may be ebXML can become a "egoless specification" to provide
mappings to other specifications :-)
[cbc] That is exactly the intent of the OMG-MDA initiative and
specifications like EDOC-CCA. CCA is in the process of being mapped to
ebXML, WSDL, J2EE, Corba and others. (Note: IONA was a submitter on this
specification, as was IBM and Sun). Here is the part that applies to BPSS
like semantics (http://www.enterprise-component.com/docs/EdocCCA.pdf).
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patil, Sanjaykumar [SMTP:spatil@iona.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 6:11 PM
> To: Cory Casanave; Young, Brian R; OASIS ebxml-cppa;
> ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org
> Subject: RE: BPSS to WSDL mapping
>
>
>
> It will be great if the BPSS to WSDL mapping did not lose any
> of the BPSS features including two-way messages, choreography
> and nested collaboration.
> Perhaps one can extend WSDL to capture these additional semantics
> of BPSS and I guess WSDL is extensible.
>
> On the lines of egoless programmer, egoless vendor, may be ebXML
> can become a "egoless specification" to provide mappings to other
> specifications :-) I think such cross specification mapping efforts
> will help convergence or at least in clarifying the differences,
> shortcomings, applicability, etc.
>
> thanks,
> Sanjay Patil
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------------------------------
> IONA
> END 2 ANYWHERE
> Phone: 408 350 9619 http://www.iona.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@enterprise-component.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 2:51 PM
> To: 'Young, Brian R'; Cory Casanave; 'OASIS ebxml-cppa';
> 'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org'
> Subject: RE: BPSS to WSDL mapping
>
>
> Perhaps if we do this binding, BPSS will be the "next piece of the Web
> Services "stack" -- something like Web Services Flow Language (WSFL)".
> Since BPSS is now, not future and already contains these concepts in a
> way
> that can augment WSDL - why do it again? The big problem - "egoless
> vendors" would be required.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Young, Brian R [SMTP:brian.r.young@boeing.com]
> > Sent: Monday, March 11, 2002 5:37 PM
> > To: 'Cory Casanave'; 'OASIS ebxml-cppa';
'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org'
> > Subject: RE: BPSS to WSDL mapping
> >
> > Cory --
> >
> > This sounds like a first step, but I suspect WSDL should not be pushed
> too
> > far. WSDL provides a description of the technical interface for a web
> > service, but doesn't really support concepts like choreography. That
> > comes with the next piece of the Web Services "stack" -- something
> like
> > Web Services Flow Language (WSFL). This is still a future and there
> are
> > several candidate flow languages being proposed; but it will happen.
> >
> > I think you need to be careful not to confuse "adoption" with "it's
> > supported". There is broad "adoption" of ebXML by those organizations
> > that have been active in the ebXML effort; but I wonder how broad the
> > "adoption" is among the tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of
> > companies that have never heard of ebXML? It seems to me meaningful
> > "adoption" will only happen once ebXML "is supported" by the big
> hitters
> > in the world of e-business/e-commerce. ebXML needs to be the default
> mode
> > of doing business when company X buys an off-the-shelf product for
> doing
> > business with company Y. And that is going to take a lot of sales
> effort
> > on the part of early ebXML "adopters" and a major commitment by
> vendors to
> > build ebXML into every aspect of their products. I remember that the
> big
> > buzz in software engineering at one time was "egoless programming". I
> > wonder if we will ever have "egoless vendors"?
> >
> >
> > Brian R. Young
> > SSG & WHQ IS / Companywide Architecture and Standards
> > (425) 865-5834
> > brian.r.young@boeing.com
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Cory Casanave [mailto:cory-c@enterprise-component.com]
> > Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 7:50 PM
> > To: 'OASIS ebxml-cppa'; 'ebtwg-bps@lists.ebtwg.org'
> > Subject: BPSS to WSDL mapping
> >
> >
> > In a web services seminary this week it became clear that the
> kinds
> > of capabilities offered by ebXML were directly applicable to
> enterprise
> > adoption of web services technologies and architectures. In a panel
> > session it was stated (by an IBM representative) that problems with
> ebXML
> > were that the adoption was "to fast" and it was "Not linked to WSDL".
> > Well, we can't go back and slow down the process, but we can fix the
> > latter.
> >
> > Perhaps in this upcoming release we could include a short
> section
> > that would specify a mapping from BPSS to WSDL. There are three basic
> > issues with this mapping.
> > * BPSS specifies two way mappings where as WSDL is one-way
> > * BPSS allows for nested collaborations
> > * BPSS has choreography and other semantics.
> >
> > To create a representation of the WSDL subset of BPSS
semantics
> > would not be that hard. It would require the production of WSDL for
> each
> > "side" of a binary collaboration. The nested collaborations could be
> > "flattened" into one WSDL interface or we could use multiple separate
> > interfaces. The choreography and other more advanced BPSS semantics
> would
> > be lost in the WSDL representation but still binding on the services
> which
> > implement them.
> >
> > This is not a hard task - it could be done in a day or two. I
> > suggest that for greater acceptance in the industry we consider adding
> an
> > XSLT transform to produce the required WSDL and make this part of the
> next
> > revision - very soon. This would help bind ebXML into the web
> services
> > core technologies. While we (DAT) don't have to bandwidth to do this
> in
> > the sort time required, we would be happy to assist someone in such a
> > task.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cory B. Casanave, President
> > Data Access Technologies
> > www.enterprise-component.com
> <http://www.enterprise-component.com/>
> > (305) 234 7077
> >
> >
>
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