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Subject: RE: T2 - Assertions and Questions
David, I assumed for my example that you had another legal proxy (the To Party MSH, maybe your own mailroom MSH) other than C1. This is not unreasonable and may occasionally occur (in any discussion about IMs we are talking about a minority use case). I have to disagree with your assertion that there are no unknown IMs. Once you pass to your local IM (in this case Ariba, which has no legal standing other than to pass the message through) you don't necessarily know where this message might go and a receipt/ack from your local IM does NOT guarantee that the message arrived at the final destination nor does a receipt from that IM, signed or otherwise, constitute any legal obligation on the To Party to perform, nor will it have any legal standing in court. Even if you were to obtain legally binding, signed acknowledgements from each hop, only the final acknowledgement would make any difference at all. Even that is not a contract between the To Party and the From Party, only a DR between the ends would imply such a contract. BTW, if the IMs do garbage collection routinely, how would you obtain that chain of signed receipts at a later date? Most of the corroborating data would be gone. Only the ends keep this information for any duration. Even if you tried, the spec has no way of requesting a "signed chain" of Acks. The value of AckRequested="signed" may be changed by any hop along the way. Let's take another case. If I do not have a persistent connection, I might have an IM hold messages for me until I retrieve them. In this case, they are not the end and they cannot send a legally signed DR for me (why do we talk about legal when we are not lawyers?). The signed DR must wait for me (the MSH) to pick up the message and then send the DR. In Dan's example, the IM would then be analogous to a PO Box. Just because the message gets put in my PO Box does not prove that I got it. This is where the analogy breaks down because the postman must have me sign on delivery where electronically, I sign myself and send back without a postman. Electronically, only the possessor of the private-key may sign. The only way I know to eliminate the idea of multi-hop is to encapsulate (wrap) the From-To message as a payload of another ebXML message which would go to the IM who would then unwrap and send, etc. This idea looked fine until we added TraceRouteList. Now we must have multi-hop. Much as I would like to support Assertion #3C (I even made such an assertion myself once), we have been through all this and it simply doesn't work. Regards, David Fischer Drummond Group. -----Original Message----- From: David Smiley [mailto:dsmiley@mercator.com] Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 10:32 AM To: 'David Fischer'; Dan Weinreb; mwsachs@us.ibm.com Cc: ebxml-msg@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: T2 - Assertions and Questions David F., I would like you to clarify your example (copied below): <DavidF> In an ebXML network example, I (the From Party) might send through Ariba and then through C1 to you (the To Party). You might actually have someone hosting your MSH which has legal authority to respond with a DR. If I get a receipt from Ariba or C1, this means nothing (except that the message is proceeding on the path, which is good to know but not critical). I might not even know C1 is in the path! I need a DR (signed?) from you or your proxy (I am assuming here that C1 is not your legal proxy). </DavidF> <DavidS> I think your example does not describe the relationships between the various parties sufficiently. What is the business relationship between From Party and Ariba? Where did the To Party specify for incoming message delivery? Why are you assuming that C1 is not the legal proxy? If the To Party tells the From Party to deliver messages to C1, I contend that successful delivery to C1 is end of the line as far as the From Party is concerned. In that case, a DR from C1 is meaningful. If C1 is not the legal proxy of the To Party, it would not be used by the To Party as its designated destination for message delivery. I come back to my basic assertions on this whole topic (omitting detail which can be found in any of the 18 other messages with this subject): Assertion #1: Application-level processing of any kind is out of scope of the Message Service Specification. Assertion #2: The To Party defines the location where messages intended for it are to be sent. Assertion #3A: From a business viewpoint, there is no such thing as an unknown intermediate party. Assertion #3B: This still works in an ecommerce marketplace scenario. Assertion #3C: For our purposes, there is no such thing as a multi-hop message. </DavidS> David Smiley Director of Standards Mercator <trim/> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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