RE: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added

[Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>]

Hi Folks,

Tim arranged for us to use the toll-free line, and I for one 
appreciate it immensely. Please check the EM-Msg calendar for the 
number and passcode.

As for my previous reply to Gary, I was just expessing my personal 
opinion, and I do not expect, nor would I hold out for, making the 
DOMs normative for this version of this spec, and I would not suggest 
it until after we do a full, abstract, EDXL Reference Information 
Model. That discussion also is for another place and time. Today we 
have the EDXL_RM on our plate and that is more than sufficient.

I also don't see a particular toolset as an issue. My previous 
comment was only that Visio was the only tool I have and it does not 
do round trip code generation and validation. I agree with Tim for 
the sake of the f2f, we should choose the tool and stay with it.

Cheers,
Rex

At 10:42 AM -0500 11/20/06, Tim Grapes wrote:
>Hi everyone,
>
>My 2-cents are that we need to strike a balance between most desirable and
>most doable to publish the OASIS specification.  Overall the approach we
>must take is to define what must be in the spec to move it out, do
>everything possible before and during the FtoF, and aggressively pursue
>outstanding issues and action items still on the table following the FtoF.
>
>Now, I haven't developed any of the message sections as Karen and Rex have
>so I don't have a good feel for it.  Regarding the individual message
>structure diagrams, I feel it's paramount to include these models.  We do
>need to determine what we can commit to before the meeting, but I fall into
>the camp with Gary.  I see these diagrams as invaluable for clarity and ease
>of reference, but the schemas with all the def's and constraints can be
>pulled by the users for implementation.  It would be really nice to have
>what Rex describes below, but I don't think it's required to produce a good,
>usable OASIS spec (although I stand ready to concede that I may not fully
>understand the breadth of the issue).  If we have a question of schema
>testing or QA, let's discuss how to address that for production of the spec.
>
>So, I don't see toolset as a big issue whether it's visio, ArgoUML, or
>another tool. I say pick a tool and convention, start with the element
>reference model as the template, and copy/tailor for each message. The same
>tool and conventions should be used for all.
>
>Looking forward to 4:00.
>
>Thanks,
>Tim
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 10:07 AM
>To: Ham, Gary A
>Cc: emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: RE: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>
>We should probably discuss this, if we can find some time to spare
>for it. I lean toward making the DOMs purely normative so tools can
>grab n go. I'm pushing for standard object libraries for standards
>included in the registry I'm building so developers can have
>app-ready libraries.
>
>For me, and this is obviously a personal opinion, I think we can make
>adoption darn near unavoidable if we make it easy through "standard"
>libraries and DOMs for developers to have Web Application using Web
>Services all but build themselves.
>
>   I put quotes around "standard" libraries, because I don't expect the
>TC to develop any such thing, but the Member Section could and
>should. However, these libraries can't actually be Standard with a
>cap S. They can be offered as ibraries of specification-compliant
>object libraries like JSP tag libraries.
>
>It also encourages real interoperability by making it easier.
>
>The recent rapid development of AJAX really put us on the spot in the
>Web Services arena in general and in particular in the OASIS Web
>Services for Remote Portlets TC, where IBM, Sun, Oracle, BEA et al
>devote actual paid time to develop and test the standards. It has
>bitten us in the rear end while we spent cycles and cycles fussing
>over the niceties of whether or not to invent transient properties
>and where and how to use em. AJAX just left us in the dust to adapt
>as best we can.
>
>It's the handwriting on the wall: If we don't keep ahead, we'll never
>catch up with the developers out there who will go ahead and build
>anything they think, or their marketing bosses tell them, they need.
>
>And they will do it in ways that we can just about guarantee won't
>encourage the kind of interoperability we are searching for as
>opposed to say the kind of interoperability one can get by rolling
>the dice for whether or not the PHP tags one uses will be handled the
>way one wants them to be handled on a given web server.
>
>I hope I don't break my neck getting down off this soap box.
>
>Cheers,
>Rex
>
>At 8:28 AM -0500 11/20/06, Ham, Gary A wrote:
>>   Actually, I prefer to think of them as "graphic message structure
>>diagrams" as opposed to DOMs.  I.e., the schema is paramount.  The "DOM"
>>is just an illustration for clarity. None-the-less a very useful
>>illustration for clarity.
>>
>>
>>Gary A. Ham
>>Senior Research Scientist
>>Battelle Memorial Institute
>>540-288-5611 (office)
>>703-869-6241 (cell)
>>"You would be surprised what you can accomplish when you do not care who
>>gets the credit." - Harry S. Truman
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Tim Grapes [mailto:tgrapes@evotecinc.com]
>>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:57 PM
>>To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>Cc: emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Subject: RE: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>>
>>Maybe I missed something...  I didn't think DOM development for each
>>message was off the table; just that it would be challenging to get them
>>done before the FtoF.  I think it's critical that the DOMs be developed.
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Tim
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: rexb@starbourne.com [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:51 PM
>>To: emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Subject: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>>
>>I highlighted being REALISTIC about where we will be with the document
>>going into the F2F because I DON'T think, given recent activities, that
>>we will have ANY DOMs and perhaps no schemas. Without DOMs, relying
>>solely on schemas, I think we can expect a wide variance in
>>applications, which, given the number of message types, is asking for
>>problems. If everyone builds their own, or lets them be determined as de
>>facto outcomes of unstructured applications built solely on schemas and
>>the data dictionary, I think we court having a mess. I intensely dislike
>>DOM-based development, but they do enforce common structures, and that
>>means ongoing INTEROPERABILITY in fact, versus theory.
>>
>>   -- Rex Brooks*
>>
>>
>>EM-Msg SC Meeting has been added by Rex Brooks*
>>
>>Date:  Monday, 20 November 2006
>>Time:  04:00pm - 05:00pm ET
>>
>>Event Description:
>>Dial-in Number:  1-641-696-6699  (Iowa)
>>Access Code	 345450
>>
>>Agenda:
>>1. Approve Minutes of previous meeting.
>>2. Review latest draft of EDXL_RM.
>>3. Determine goals for F2F wrt EDXL_RM, including REALISTIC asessment of
>>where we will be going in.
>>4. Mke a list of issues to be addressed as Karen noted.
>>5. Focus activities that leverage group participation.
>>
>>Minutes:
>>
>>
>>View event details:
>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/emergency-msg/event.php?eve
>>nt_i
>>d=12988
>>
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>
>
>--
>Rex Brooks
>President, CEO
>Starbourne Communications Design
>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>Berkeley, CA 94702
>Tel: 510-849-2309
>
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-- 
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309