Re: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added

[Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>]

Thanks Carl,

I thought your comments were worth sharing with the group. I agree, 
of course, that the various developer communities are ready to 
implement solutions period, no matter where they come from. The lack 
of balance between traditional standards orgs of which OASIS is 
actually a late comer and the "whatever works" reality is something 
that can only be addressed if it is acknowledged.

It's strange to me when someone with as little patience as I have 
been blessed with finds himself advising colleagues to wait on 
standards before they go charging off. I think a Member Section may 
be able to help bring in ideas and keep us abreast of the evolution 
going on outside our circles. I think that the developer community 
lacks appreciation for how difficult it is to conduct this work in 
drips and dribbles an hour or two every week or every other week 
punctuated by rapid progress when we can arrange our f2f get 
togethers.

However, we do it, I think we need to address these issues.

Cheers,
Rex

At 12:27 PM -0700 11/20/06, Carl Reed OGC Account wrote:
>Rex -
>
>Interesting dialogue - and similar in nature to discussion  in the 
>new OGC Architecture Board. There is definitely a tension out in ICT 
>land between traditional standards development and their use in web 
>services/SOA and what is happening in the wild of Web 2.0. Case in 
>point: ten months ago a group of us put out a draft for the georss 
>specification and put out the official version 1 about 3 months ago. 
>We did this outside the OGC or any other standards organization in 
>order to provide a collaborative environment for the Web 2.0 and 
>RSS/Atom communities. GeoRSS has a full blown information model and 
>is totally grounded in the ISO feature model (and there is a GML 
>serialization). And guess what: the Web 2.0 folks are using georss 
>for alerts - gov to citizen, citizen to citizen and citizen to gov. 
>This was not an intended use case. But, given the rapid 
>proliferation of the use of SS feeds, it makes sense. This is 
>another case of where what is happening in the broader ITC space can 
>conceivably marginalize the traditional standards org.
>
>Also, GeoRSS is being discussed in both W3C and the OGC for 
>endorsement as an international best practice of encoding location 
>into feeds.
>
>Cheers
>
>Carl
>
>----- Original Message ----- From: "Rex Brooks" <rexb@starbourne.com>
>To: "Ham, Gary A" <hamg@BATTELLE.ORG>
>Cc: <emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org>
>Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 8:07 AM
>Subject: RE: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>
>>We should probably discuss this, if we can find some time to spare 
>>for it. I lean toward making the DOMs purely normative so tools can 
>>grab n go. I'm pushing for standard object libraries for standards 
>>included in the registry I'm building so developers can have 
>>app-ready libraries.
>>
>>For me, and this is obviously a personal opinion, I think we can 
>>make adoption darn near unavoidable if we make it easy through 
>>"standard" libraries and DOMs for developers to have Web 
>>Application using Web Services all but build themselves.
>>
>>  I put quotes around "standard" libraries, because I don't expect 
>>the TC to develop any such thing, but the Member Section could and 
>>should. However, these libraries can't actually be Standard with a 
>>cap S. They can be offered as ibraries of specification-compliant 
>>object libraries like JSP tag libraries.
>>
>>It also encourages real interoperability by making it easier.
>>
>>The recent rapid development of AJAX really put us on the spot in 
>>the Web Services arena in general and in particular in the OASIS 
>>Web Services for Remote Portlets TC, where IBM, Sun, Oracle, BEA et 
>>al devote actual paid time to develop and test the standards. It 
>>has bitten us in the rear end while we spent cycles and cycles 
>>fussing over the niceties of whether or not to invent transient 
>>properties and where and how to use em. AJAX just left us in the 
>>dust to adapt as best we can.
>>
>>It's the handwriting on the wall: If we don't keep ahead, we'll 
>>never catch up with the developers out there who will go ahead and 
>>build anything they think, or their marketing bosses tell them, 
>>they need.
>>
>>And they will do it in ways that we can just about guarantee won't 
>>encourage the kind of interoperability we are searching for as 
>>opposed to say the kind of interoperability one can get by rolling 
>>the dice for whether or not the PHP tags one uses will be handled 
>>the way one wants them to be handled on a given web server.
>>
>>I hope I don't break my neck getting down off this soap box.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Rex
>>
>>At 8:28 AM -0500 11/20/06, Ham, Gary A wrote:
>>>  Actually, I prefer to think of them as "graphic message structure
>>>diagrams" as opposed to DOMs.  I.e., the schema is paramount.  The "DOM"
>>>is just an illustration for clarity. None-the-less a very useful
>>>illustration for clarity.
>>>
>>>
>>>Gary A. Ham
>>>Senior Research Scientist
>>>Battelle Memorial Institute
>>>540-288-5611 (office)
>>>703-869-6241 (cell)
>>>"You would be surprised what you can accomplish when you do not care who
>>>gets the credit." - Harry S. Truman
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Tim Grapes [mailto:tgrapes@evotecinc.com]
>>>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 3:57 PM
>>>To: rexb@starbourne.com
>>>Cc: emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: RE: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>>>
>>>Maybe I missed something...  I didn't think DOM development for each
>>>message was off the table; just that it would be challenging to get them
>>>done before the FtoF.  I think it's critical that the DOMs be developed.
>>>
>>>Thanks,
>>>Tim
>>>
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: rexb@starbourne.com [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>>>Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 12:51 PM
>>>To: emergency-msg@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: [emergency-msg] Groups - EM-Msg SC Meeting added
>>>
>>>I highlighted being REALISTIC about where we will be with the document
>>>going into the F2F because I DON'T think, given recent activities, that
>>>we will have ANY DOMs and perhaps no schemas. Without DOMs, relying
>>>solely on schemas, I think we can expect a wide variance in
>>>applications, which, given the number of message types, is asking for
>>>problems. If everyone builds their own, or lets them be determined as de
>>>facto outcomes of unstructured applications built solely on schemas and
>>>the data dictionary, I think we court having a mess. I intensely dislike
>>>DOM-based development, but they do enforce common structures, and that
>>>means ongoing INTEROPERABILITY in fact, versus theory.
>>>
>>>  -- Rex Brooks*
>>>
>>>
>>>EM-Msg SC Meeting has been added by Rex Brooks*
>>>
>>>Date:  Monday, 20 November 2006
>>>Time:  04:00pm - 05:00pm ET
>>>
>>>Event Description:
>>>Dial-in Number:  1-641-696-6699  (Iowa) Access Code 345450
>>>
>>>Agenda:
>>>1. Approve Minutes of previous meeting.
>>>2. Review latest draft of EDXL_RM.
>>>3. Determine goals for F2F wrt EDXL_RM, including REALISTIC asessment of
>>>where we will be going in.
>>>4. Mke a list of issues to be addressed as Karen noted.
>>>5. Focus activities that leverage group participation.
>>>
>>>Minutes:
>>>
>>>
>>>View event details:
>>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/emergency-msg/event.php?eve
>>>nt_i
>>>d=12988
>>>
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>>
>>
>>--
>>Rex Brooks
>>President, CEO
>>Starbourne Communications Design
>>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>>Berkeley, CA 94702
>>Tel: 510-849-2309


-- 
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-849-2309