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Subject: Re: [emergency] Re: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle


My 2 cents
 
Mr. Webber's approach is NIEM conforming, but NOT standards conforming.  He can claim to use input from existing standards but cannot claim to actually use those standards. Especially, he cannot claim to conform to them.  Building a NIEM conforming schema is not the same as building a standard.  A standard involves acceptance of the exchange schema by a formal standards body.  When you build an IEPD you have 3 options.
 
1. Build it as a NIEM IEPD and ignore other standards.
2. Build an IEPD and use pieces of external standards but ignore validation or conformance to the the standards that are reused.
3. Build an IEPD with standards conforming components in adapters and add any other needed data using NIEM want list methods or current NIEM elements .
 
In all three cases the result is not a standard until it is recognized as one, either deFacto or through a recognized Standards body. 
 
Mr. Webber has chosen path 2.  He should not advertise it any other way.  He does not conform to the standards that he is using in any way whatsoever.

Gary Ham
703-899-6241



On Aug 4, 2011, at 8:52 AM, Grapes, Timothy wrote:

 
From: Grapes, Timothy 
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2011 7:26 AM
To: David RR Webber (XML)
Cc: rex.brooks@ncoic.org; emergency TC lists Oasis
Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle
 
This is not a tool or technology issue.  It’s a methodology, approach and policy issue.  If implementers  wish to develop exchanges which interoperate only within a single project or partner implementation, there is no problem with that. 
 
It is the position of OASIS to educate user communities  regarding broad interoperability objectives and integrity in application and use of its standards.  The demonstrated process breaks HAVE interoperability and perpetuates the perception that the outcome is conformant with HAVE-compliant exchanges, and this is inaccurate.  HAVE is widely implemented across the nation’s hospitals and by HHS, and OASIS will help to ensure that user communities are educated about the implications of methodologies which may introduce issues or render current HAVE-based exchanges useless.
 
We are working with NIEM to ensure appropriate integration, federation, policy and methodology when working with external public standards (specifically EDXL).  NIEM supports these efforts.
 
I’ll refrain from further emails on the topic as appropriate follow up is pursued.
Thanks,
    Tim
Tim Grapes
SE Solutions, Inc.
(703) 304-4829
 
From: David RR Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:18 PM
To: Grapes, Timothy
Cc: rex.brooks@ncoic.org; emergency TC lists Oasis
Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle
 
Tim,
 
Contrarywise the new EIEM and BIEC specifications from NIEM NTAC are aligned with the demonstration.
 
 
Now of course individual communities are entitled to retain older techniques such as adapters - but the ability to define an EIEM for Emergency Management incorporating components from existing exchanges - and blending those with NIEM core components as BIEC permits - is enabled by the CAMeditor toolset.
 

Thanks, DW

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: RE: [emergency] Re: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle
From: "Grapes, Timothy" <Timothy.Grapes@sesolutions.com>
Date: Wed, August 03, 2011 11:52 am
To: <rex.brooks@ncoic.org>, "David RR Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>,
"emergency TC lists Oasis" <emergency@lists.oasis-open.org>

Hi David,
The actual real-world problem and misleading issue is that the video demonstrates an invalid method of adding elements to HAVE (or any other standard) for this purpose.  If the demonstrated technique is used, it breaks the standard as noted by Rex.  This perpetuates ongoing misconceptions in the use of EDXL and NIEM.  Therefore, the EM-TC is determining a formal position in response and for outreach.
 
A valid methodology has been defined between EDXL and NIEM to accomplish the goal of extending a public standard through the use of NIEM adaptors.  This is the only technical approach that may be utilized where the end product remains conformant with the public standard.
Thanks,
    Tim
Tim Grapes
SE Solutions, Inc.
(703) 304-4829
 
From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rex.brooks@ncoic.org] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 11:09 AM
To: David RR Webber (XML); emergency TC lists Oasis
Subject: [emergency] Re: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle
 
Hi David,

Work on HAVE 2.0 is underway, but in hiatus until after SitReps 1.0 and DE 2.0 have been worked through to Public Review, currently held up in overtaxed TC Admin. I'm copying the TC list with this reply in order to pass your reply along to those who have been concerned.

Cheers,
Rex

On 8/2/11 8:44 PM, David RR Webber (XML) wrote:
Rex,
 
It's purely illustrative - for demonstration purposes - hypothetical - assuming someone wanted to add additional Aircraft information using NIEM dictionary components - this could be how to do it. 
 
Obviously there are many improvements that could be made to HAVE to make it more flexible, more aligned to NIEM, lessons learned from Haiti, and the list goes on.
 
My membership of HAVE at OASIS is still caught up in Oracle bureaucracy - so its going to be several weeks more before I can rejoin the list and comment.
 
I suggest people just relax until then.
 
BTW - is there new work on HAVE in progress?  I cannot "see" anything right now - as I'm not on the TC list.
 
Thanks, DW
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Oracle NIEM Video Kerfuffle
From: Rex Brooks <rex.brooks@ncoic.org>
Date: Tue, August 02, 2011 12:33 pm
To: "David RR Webber (XML)" <david@drrw.info>

Hi David,

I don't know if you are associated with the video on the oracle.com 
site: http://launch.oracle.com/?NIEM but it is causing a problem with 
the EM TC because the end product breaks the EDXL-HAVE specification, 
and while I am not the person to speak with, I said I would borach the 
topic with you. I'm not working on HAVE so I haven't followed this, but 
it should be dealt with through OASIS and NIEM. The TC is moving to do 
this, so at least now you know.

Cheers,
Rex



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