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Subject: Re: [emergency] RE: [emergency-gis] Re: [emergency] Groups - CAP 1.1 Subcommittee Draft (CAP_1.1-draft_1-4-05) uploaded


Art -

Thanks for the response. Yes, the emails have been about how to express a
typographic convention. I was trying to point out that it would be better
to follow international convention.  Sorry you could not find the
documents - they can be a bit obscure.
Anyway, as you know and is referenced in CAP, the normative reference for
CRS (Coordinate Reference System) information is the EPSG (www.epsg.org).
The EPSG provides a geodetic parameter database of CRS representations. As
that organiztion states: The EPSG geodetic parameter dataset is a
repository of parameters required to:
1. identify coordinates such that those coordinates describe position
unambiguously. This is through a coordinate reference system (CRS)
definition.2. define transformations and conversions that allow coordinates to be
changed from one CRS to another CRS. Transformations and conversions are
collectively called coordinate operations.
Within the EPSG database is CRS definition 4236 (WGS 84 geographic 2d CRS.
I believe that this is the one referenced in CAP 1.0. I do not have the
document in front of me, so I apologize if I am off-base.
Coordinates are unambiguous only when the unit and unit representation
used are identified. For geographic CRSs with units of degrees, the degree
representation information is no longer explicitly provided as part of the
EPSG CRS description. EPSG geographic CRSs such as codes 4326 and 4267
allow (and require) the degree representation to be defined for the user
by the coordinate data supplier.
Further, the values in a WGS 84 geographical 2D CRS are given in decimal
degrees. For areas straddling the 180 meridian, the "west" longitude will
have a higher value than the "east" longitude.
Therefore, best practices would dictate that the coordinate data supplier
provide the information as to how the decimal degrees are expressed rather
than the spec limit the expression of those values. For example, decimal
degrees of longitude could be expressed in the range of 0 to 360 or -180
to +180.
Within this context, "signing" a value is restricting the coordinate data
supplier. Do we wish to do this?
Cheers

Carl




> At 11:54 AM -0500 1/18/05, David Danko wrote:
>>  I thought CAP used WGS coordinates (unprojected) so we wouldn't have
>>  the
>>problem with differnt projections.
>
> As I understand it, the question here is about how best to describe a
> particular typographic convention, not about reopening the whole
> projections question.
>
> Carl, I looked at the OGC documents and couldn't find a direct
> reference that seemed to go to this particular point... and adopting
> the whole document looked like a much broader proposition... although
> I'm clearly not the most qualified person to go looking through GIS
> specs.
>
> If you're seriously suggesting the TC consider adopting these
> documents entire, seems like that could be discussed, although I
> wonder if it might be more appropriate in the CAP 2.0/EDXL timeframe.
> Otherwise, would you like to propose a simple citation that would
> address this particular point?
>
> - Art
>
>>
>>DAve
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Carl Reed
>>To: ktrails@comcast.net
>>Cc: acb@incident.com; emergency-gis@lists.oasis-open.org;
>>emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>>Sent: 1/18/2005 11:27 AM
>>Subject: [emergency-gis] Re: [emergency] Groups - CAP 1.1 Subcommittee
>>Draft (CAP_1.1-draft_1-4-05) uploaded
>>
>>Got this. Will discuss in the GIS SC.  Of course, if OASIS CAP
>>referenced
>>the OGC/ISO Spatial Referencing by Coordinates (Coordinate Reference
>>System) standards and EPSG as the normative reference for CRS
>>parameters,
>>there would be no issue :-) Also, if CAP is used outside the US, the
>>proposed approach for "signing coordinates" runs into serious problems
>>in
>>a number of countries - such as South Africa, which uses the Lo-Gauss
>>projection.
>>Cheers
>>
>>Carl
>>
>>>  Actually, I sent the same language to Allen Wyke
>>>  who posted it to this list July 14, 2004 :-)
>>>
>>>  -jeff
>>>
>>>  On Jan 18, 2005, at 6:39 AM, Art Botterell wrote:
>>>
>>>>  At last, a constructive suggestion!  Personally I'd have no problem
>>>>  with that suggested language, although my opinion isn't what
>>>>  matters.
>>>>   I think this issue was referred back to the GIS subcommittee last
>>>>  week, so I'm forwarding this to them.
>>>>
>>>>  Thanks!
>>>>
>>>>  - Art
>>>>
>>>>  At 5:44 AM -0600 1/18/05, Jeff Kyser wrote:
>>>>>  Still seems to me that the following is clearer
>>>>>  and more precise (Section 3.3.1):
>>>>>
>>>>>	Latitudes in the Southern Hemisphere and longitudes in the
>>>>>	Western Hemisphere are signed negative with a leading dash.
>>>>>
>>>>>  (as opposed to 'Coordinates in the Southern and Western
>>>>>  Hemispheres ...')
>>>>>
>>>>>  A similar sentence has been added to Section 1.5, it would benefit
>>>>>  from
>>>>>  the same language.
>>>>>
>>>>>  -jeff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  On Jan 9, 2005, at 10:14 PM, Art Botterell wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>  Bob -
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Your concern was discussed at some length by both the GIS and
>>>>>>  Messaging Subcommittees.  During the 11/30 call the Messaging
>>>>>>  Subcommittee took up Issue 14 and voted to stick with this
>>>>>>  formulation, which is in line with GIS industry and ISO usage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Of course you're welcome to offer an amendment to the full TC for
>>>>>>  discussion on our next call, hopefully with some specific
>>>>>>  alternate
>>>>>>   language.  After that it'll be up to the Committee.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  - Art
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  At 10:35 PM -0500 1/9/05, Bob Wyman wrote:
>>>>>>>  Art Botterell wrote:
>>>>>>>>   The CAP 1.1 spec as approved by the Messaging Subcommittee.
>>>>>>>>  Please
>>>>>>>>   review for approval to move it to public comment ASAP.
>>>>>>>	In the issues list for the CAP specification, it is stated that
>>>>>>>  issue 14 would be addressed in 1.1... Yet, the offending and
>>>>>>>  non-sensical
>>>>>>>  sentence "Coordinates in the Southern and Western hemispheres
>>>>>>>  are signed
>>>>>>>  negative with a leading dash." remains in the specification. As
>>>>>>>  I have been
>>>>>>>  saying, since before 1.0 was approved by this working group,
>>>>>>>  "coordinates"
>>>>>>>  can't be signed -- only the components of a coordinate can be
>>  >>>>> signed.
>>>>>>>	I suggest that an effort should be made to incorporate committed
>>>>>>>  changes to the specification before it is released for public
>>>>>>>  comment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>	bob wyman
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>  From: acb@incident.com [mailto:acb@incident.com]
>>>>>>>  Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 6:33 PM
>>>>>>>  To: emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>>>>  Subject: [emergency] Groups - CAP 1.1 Subcommittee Draft
>>>>>>>  (CAP_1.1-draft_1-4-05) uploaded
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The CAP 1.1 spec as approved by the Messaging Subcommittee.
>>Please
>>>>>>>    review
>>>>>>>  for approval to move it to public comment ASAP.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  - Art
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   -- Art Botterell
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The document named CAP 1.1 Subcommittee Draft
>>>>>>>  (CAP_1.1-draft_1-4-05) has
>>>>>>>  been submitted by Art Botterell to the OASIS Emergency
>>>>>>>  Management TC document repository.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Document Description:
>>>>>>>  A draft update to the CAP specification incorporating issues
>>>>>>>  identified to
>>>>>>>  date.  Approved by the Messaging Subcommittee on 1/4/05.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Download Document:
>>>>>>>  http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/emergency/
>>>>>>>  download.php/10905/CA
>>>>>>>  P_1.1-draft_1-4-05
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  View Document Details:
>>>>>>>  http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/emergency/
>>>>>>>  document.php?document
>>>>>>>  _id=10905
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  PLEASE NOTE:  If the above links do not work for you, your email
>>>>>>>  application
>>>>>>>  may be breaking the link into two pieces.  You may be able to
>>>>>>>  copy
>>>>>>>   and paste
>>>>>>>  the entire link address into the address field of your web
>>browser.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  -OASIS Open Administration
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
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