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Subject: RE: [emergency] RE: CoT / NIEM


Dear Judtih, Everyone,

Let me clarify my own position and apologize for appearing to agree 
with David Ellis' characterization of COMCARE. I don't agree with 
that part of David's message: to wit

"... The EIC has always been a vendor consortium dominated by COMCARE 
which brought a vendor product perspective to be considered by the 
technical committee..."

I don't believe COMCARE has always dominated EIC, nor do I think that 
a "vendor product perspective" is a bad thing for EIC to bring to 
this process. I don't know if that was David's intent. I certainly 
did not read it that way, so I don't understand reacting as if 
David's message was an attack on COMCARE. I think that a vendor 
product perspective is absolutely necessary for developing good 
standards so that vendors can implement them successfully, for 
everyone's benefit.

I read David's message as an attempt to clarify some misstatements 
about the EIC having oversight over the OASIS EM TC and other 
statements about EDXL-DE by Mr. Kern, who, as far as I know, is not 
associated with COMCARE.

I happen to have a high regard for COMCARE.

Cheers,
Rex






At 9:24 PM -0500 2/25/08, Judith Woodhall wrote:
>I usually do not respond to email trails such as these, but in light of
>Mr. Ellis' statements and Rex's email about clarifying misstatements, I
>felt I needed to respond this particular trail.
>
>I am curious as to why David Ellis' recent posting attacked the
>Emergency Interoperability Consortium (EIC) and COMCARE.  For reasons
>that escape me, he dismisses EIC as a tool of COMCARE, and COMCARE as a
>vendor oriented group.  That would surprise both EIC and COMCARE's
>members, most of whom are emergency response organizations.  His
>assertions are also entirely in conflict with the facts.
>
>Ironically, the OASIS EDXL Distribution Element standard that Mr. Ellis
>likes so much was initiated by COMCARE in 2004.  The emergency response
>practitioner process to develop detailed requirements for messaging
>standards that he refers to favorably was initially organized and run by
>COMCARE for two years, under contract to the DHS Disaster Management
>Program.  COMCARE's work coordinating a wide range of emergency response
>organizations, addressing a multiplicity of use cases, resulted in the
>submission of three detailed specifications to the OASIS EMTC: the
>Distribution Element, the set of Resource Messages and HAVE.  EIC
>members contributed to that process and EIC was the formal "submitter"
>for the work product of the process COMCARE organized and ran.  The
>other key partner in that effort was Evolution Technologies.  The staff
>there provided superb technical support, except for HAVE, where our
>Technical Director, did the work.  No new detailed requirements or
>specifications have been submitted to the EMTC in the two and one half
>years since COMCARE's contract to do this outreach and organizational
>work was shifted to SRA/Touchstone.  
>
>So what is David upset about?  I'm not sure. 
>
>Could it be that he knows COMCARE objects to the proprietary
>architecture Ellis designed for IPAWS?  We understand why information
>technology vendors like Sandia want every emergency message to go
>through their network.  We don't know of a business that doesn't want a
>monopoly.  However, we strongly believe in standards-based open
>architecture.  That means more than just using messaging standards.  It
>means that key functions like access control/identity management and
>organizational directories cannot be tucked into proprietary products
>like the proprietary intelligent message broker David (or anyone)
>selects.  There will be multiple emergency applications and networks,
>owned by a wide variety of emergency agencies or states.  If we are
>going to have interoperability, key functions like these two (who the
>players are and what they are allowed to do) need to be standardized and
>available to all authorized networks and parties.  We call these
>network-centric applications "core services" and are working with a wide
>variety of parties to standardize them.  OGC, COMCARE, NENA and NASFM
>have an initiative for this purpose. 
>
>Sure the NewParadigm intelligent broker David selected a couple of years
>ago is terrific.  But COMCARE,  EIC, and hopefully DHS spent a lot of
>time and energy developing the initial work - brought to fruition by the
>EMTC - which allows any IT product adopting the EDXL standards to talk
>to any other one.  We didn't do that to have a single player in the
>middle. 
>
>Judith
>
>--------------------------
>Judith Woodhall
>Executive Director
>COMCARE
>Emergency Response Alliance
>1701 K Street NW
>Fourth Floor
>Washington DC 20006
>O: 202.429.0574  Ext. 203
>C: 202.538.1645
>jwoodhall@comcare.org
>www.comcare.org
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>Sent: Monday, February 25, 2008 12:07 PM
>To: Ellis, David; mkern at mkern dot com; 'Kamran Atri'; 'Hoogasian
>Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q'; 'Wright, Bill <CTR>'; cv@mowg.cap.gov;
>Oien, Chuck; Ammerlahn, Heidi; emergency@lists.oasis-open.org
>Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; Nelson, Brian Dale; 'Ponikvar,
>Donald <CTR>'; 'Streetman, Steven <CTR>'; 'Tullia, Thomas'; 'Dilonardo,
>Robert'
>Subject: [emergency] RE: CoT / NIEM
>
>Thanks for your diligence, David,
>
>As co-chair of the Emergency Messages and Notification Subcommittee
>of the OASIS Emergency Management Technical Committee (EM TC), I
>appreciate your effort to clarify and correct any misstatements,
>however well-intentioned they may be. We have seen these kinds of
>statements several times over recent years, by various parties, and
>it is important that any misconceptions or misunderstandings due to
>such statements or which lead to such statements should be clarified
>and corrected as quickly as possible.
>
>Best Regards,
>Rex Brooks
>
>At 9:18 AM -0700 2/25/08, Ellis, David wrote:
>>Matt
>>
>>Please be more precise when describing the standards efforts
>>developing a basis for deploying a highly scalable, secure,
>>distribution capability for event notification operational needs.
>>The term XML Router when describing EDXL-DE distribution continues
>>to cause confusion.  In Fact, the IPAWS program office has explored
>>all kinds of "XML Routers" which do not support the use of EDXL-DE
>>metadata for security and distribution routing.  Also, EDXL-DE can
>>distribute non-XML payloads.
>>
>>The next major issue is stating that the EIC has Oversight of the
>>OASIS Emergency Management technical committee.  OASIS is an
>>International Standards body which develops capability to meet the
>>needs of a diverse set of international agencies.  In the United
>>States, the Federal, State, Tribal, and local fire, police,
>>emergency response agencies are stakeholders.  In the past, the
>>Disaster Management e-Gov program used a practitioners working group
>  >to determine needs directly from the responders.  The EIC has always
>>been a vendor consortium dominated by COMCARE which brought a vendor
>  >product perspective to be considered by the technical committee.
>>
>>Finally, the statement that "We see USAF CoT as a substitute for
>>IEEE 1512.4" is not a Sandia National Laboratories position and
>>based on the first sentence of the attached e-mail implies this it
>>is an OASIS EM TC position.  In Fact, we have discussed this and
>>over a year ago documented some requirements for an EDXL Asset
>>Tracking standard to compliment the EDXL-RM standard.  The Asset
>  >Tracking efforts of the TC have been postponed until the RM standard
>>was completed.  Also, I believe the Department of Commerce and the
>>IEEE would question this statement.
>>
>>Sandia National Laboratories is fully committed to work through
>>International standards bodies like OASIS to meet the needs of
>>Federal agencies in deploying systems for Homeland Security.  The
>>wording in the attached e-mail implies Sandia National
>>Laboratories/David Ellis agrees with all aspects of the e-mail.
>>
>>David E. Ellis
>>Information Management Architect
>>(505) 844-6697
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: mkern at mkern dot com [mailto:mkern@mkern.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:00 AM
>>To: 'Kamran Atri'; 'Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q';
>>'Wright, Bill <CTR>'; cv@mowg.cap.gov
>>Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; Nelson, Brian Dale; Ellis,
>>David; 'Ponikvar, Donald <CTR>'; 'Streetman, Steven <CTR>'; 'Tullia,
>>Thomas'; 'Dilonardo, Robert'
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>  >
>>Kamran:
>>
>>Dave Ellis of Sandia National Labs is on the OASIS TC committee.  He
>>is also the
>>lead on producing the pilot DNDO router for the  SETCP (SouthEast
>Regional
>>Transportation Corridor Pilot Program.  He is also the lead on the
>>production of
>>IPAWS routers at FEMA.
>>
>>Don Ponikvar and Steve Streetman from DNDO are on the EIC (steering
>committee)
>>for oversight of OASIS TC.
>>
>>(I believe we are as highly connected as we can reasonably be.)
>>
>>Concerning our alignment of concepts and compliance with OASIS, the
>DNDO DMWG
>>and it's predecessor group follow the EDXL-DE approach as listed in
>>the EDXL-DE
>>standard, with modifications, as follows.  First, the EDXL-DE standard
>says it
>>may be used to encapsulate EDXL-CAP or EDXL-HAVE or EDXL-RM or IEEE
>1512
>>messages.  IEEE 1512 includes 1512.base for OC interoperation, 1512.1
>for
>>traffic management, 1512.3 for HAZMAT- but IEEE 1512.4 for mobile units
>was
>>never completed and work has halted.  We see USAF CoT as a substitute
>for IEEE
>>1512.4.  DNDO also hopes to encapsulate CBP N25/T25 in EDXL-DE
>wrappers.
>>EDXL-DE is seen as a protocol intended for use between XML routers.
>The GNDS
>>(Global Nuclear Detection System) hopes to use the infrastructure of
>>others like
>>CBP, TSA and the IC, who primarily use XML routers for infrastructure,
>and
>>EDXL-DE offers hope for interconnection and interoperation of these
>routers.
>>
>>(I believe we are also about as compliant as possible.)
>>
>>Some eventual assistance from EDMO to cause others in DHS to also adopt
>such
>>compliance would be very helpful.  USCG and FEMA are already moving in
>this
>>direction.  I can forward you a FEMA white-paper on that.   CBP and TSA
>are
>>other key targets for interoperation, and especially SBInet, where
>>we could use
>>assistance concerning harmonization and interoperation based on DHS
>standards.
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Kamran Atri [mailto:katri@paragontech.net]
>>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 9:14 AM
>>To: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q; Wright, Bill <CTR>;
>>cv@mowg.cap.gov
>>Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; mkern@mkern.com;
>bdnelso@sandia.gov
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>>
>>EDXL is also part of NIEM (work in progress). Who in EDXL are you
>>working with?
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Kamran Atri
>>703-930-6057
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q
>>[mailto:Stephen.Hoogasian@pentagon.af.mil]
>>Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2008 8:28 AM
>>To: Wright, Bill <CTR>; Kamran Atri; cv@mowg.cap.gov
>>Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; mkern@mkern.com;
>bdnelso@sandia.gov
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>>
>>Gents,
>>
>>I might also suggest speaking with both LtCol Troy Campbell and Mr
>>Brian Nelson
>>of Sandia.  They are making progress on very similar issues in
>>coordinating the
>>intercommunication between CoT and EDXL (emergency data exchange
>language).
>>
>>v/r
>>Hoog
>>
>>Lt Col Stephen Hoogasian
>>Irregular Warfare Requirements
>>HQ USAF/A5R-Q, Rm 5C161
>>Comm: 703-614-4940
>>
>>"Do not follow where the path may lead.  Go instead where there is no
>path and
>>leave a trail." - Emerson
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>  >From: Wright, Bill <CTR> [mailto:Bill.Wright.ctr@wg.srs.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:49 PM
>>To: Kamran Atri; Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q
>>Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; mkern@mkern.com
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>>
>>Kamran,
>>thanks so much for the reply.
>>Here is a central question that I have.
>>CoT emphasizes significantly the use of attributes for defining
>properties of
>>objects. (Or at least this is my current understanding.) NIEM
>emphasizes
>>strongly the use of elements and recommends very limited use of
>attributes.
>>In fact, I have suggested that more use of attributes should be made
>>in our NIEM
>>models,  and I have had a pretty strong push back against this.
>>So I'm wondering how this architectual conflict around the use of
>>attributes by
>>NIEM and CoT is being addressed?
>>
>>cheers,
>>Bill
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: Kamran Atri [mailto:katri@paragontech.net]
>>Sent: Wed 2/20/2008 16:38
>>To: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q; Wright, Bill <CTR>
>  >Cc: matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; mkern@mkern.com
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>>
>>
>>
>>We (me and CoT team) really have not started the work yet. I have
>received a
>>demo so far and a few documentation.
>>Just a correction, We are not "working on the incorporation of CoT into
>NIEM".
>>In actuality when the CoT team is ready we will help CoT to gain
>>compliancy with
>>NIEM (which I don't forecast to be a large tasking or activities).
>>Ill be happy to talk with you or anyone else anytime.
>>
>>
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Kamran Atri
>>703-930-6057
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q
>  >[mailto:Stephen.Hoogasian@pentagon.af.mil]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 2:31 PM
>>To: Wright, Bill <CTR>
>>Cc: Kamran Atri; matthew.kern@associates.hq.dhs.gov; mkern@mkern.com
>>Subject: RE: CoT / NIEM
>>
>>Mr Wright,
>>
>>That is Mr Kamran Atri, cc'd in the message.  Also assisting greatly is
>Mr
>>Matthew Kern, also cc'd.
>  >
>>v/r
>>Hoog
>>
>>Lt Col Stephen Hoogasian
>>Irregular Warfare Requirements
>>HQ USAF/A5R-Q, Rm 5C161
>>Comm: 703-614-4940
>>
>>"Do not follow where the path may lead.  Go instead where there is no
>path and
>>leave a trail." - Emerson
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Wright, Bill <CTR> [mailto:Bill.Wright.ctr@wg.srs.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 2:27 PM
>>To: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q
>>Subject: FW: USCG
>>
>>
>>Steve,
>>could I get a contact at NIEM who is working on the incorporation of
>CoT into
>>NIEM?
>>
>>cheers,
>>Bill Wright
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: mkern at mkern dot com [mailto:mkern@mkern.com]
>>Sent: Wed 2/20/2008 12:28
>>To: 'Dilonardo, Robert'; 'Bredehoft, Brent'; 'McDevitt, Steven';
>'Waddell,
>>David'; 'Bongers, Martin'; 'Biesecker, Kevin'; 'Dordal, Liz';
>>DavidM.Webb@dhs.gov; 'Vazquez, Jose'; Briggs, Kevin; 'Ponikvar, Donald
><CTR>';
>>'Streetman, Steven <CTR>'; Young, David; lee.smith@dhs.gov; 'dae lee';
>>zaur@comcast.net; Wright, Bill <CTR>; joe.wileman@ensco.com; 'Tullia,
>Thomas';
>>bdnelso@sandia.gov; dellis@sandia.gov; 'Kamran Atri';
>donna.roy@dhs.gov;
>>kshemendra.paul@usdoj.gov; felix@feacinstitute.org;
>beryl@feacinstitute.org;
>>bjones@doc.gov; jeanne.etzel@dhs.gov; trent.depersia@dhs.gov;
>>William.Ford@usdoj.gov; stephen.molnar1@us.army.mil;
>skip@antipatterns.com;
>>reng@mitre.org; troubadour3m@adelphia.net; jeffrey.larue@hp.com;
>>REICHJ@stratcom.mil; Michael.Pongrace@associates.dhs.gov;
>>Ralph.Kohler@rl.af.mil; emackrell@hotmail.com; David.Gearhart@afit.edu;
>>franklane@comcast.net; mcalister@nlectc-se.org; 'Trick, Lawrence L. CIV
>>COMNAVAIRSYSCOMPATUXENTRIVERMD Air 4.1'; Shawn.Matz@dhs.gov;
>>mary.register@dhs.gov
>>Cc: cv@mowg.cap.gov; 'Kluckhuhn, Christopher LCDR'; drobbins@mitre.org;
>'mkern
>>at mkern dot com'; 'Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q'
>>Subject: RE: USCG
>>
>>
>>All:
>>
>>I am sorry for any interruption of your work: Just a small bit of news
>to
>>brighten your day.
>>
>>This link < http://www.mowg.cap.gov/gesa/CAPsitmap.cgi > provides
>access to an
>>ongoing low-budget pilot for providing nationwide situation awareness
>to
>>state/local/tribal government.  This website is the tip of a nationwide
>XML
>>router network iceberg.  Access and use of the router network to
>>publish SA from
>>your system, receive SA as input to your system (with your user
>interface) or
>>view SA via their user interface is all free.  Improvements in the user
>>interface to provide more sophisticated filtering are in process.
>>Improvements
>>to the router network to provide greater security are in process.
>>Improvements
>>to interfaces to EDXL-DE sources and civil government routers are in
>process.
>>Improvements to real-time data sources are in process.
>>
>>This work is a snapshot view of ongoing collaboration fostering
>interoperation
>>between FEMA, USAF, USCG, CAP and many others, including many free
>>contributions
>>from DHS and DOD vendors who want to do something for their country.
>>The budget
>>is nearly zero and it is not an official program to allow individual
>charity
>>contribution and to avoid any buildup of organizational barriers.
>>Many of these
>>folks have been motivated by 9/11 and Katrina.
>  >
>>The basic technology used is the USAF CoT protocol.  This technology
>was
>>contributed to the public domain by SECAF in 2007.  MITRE provides
>>free routers
>>and other software.  Over 150 operational systems currently use this
>protocol.
>>CoT is being incorporated into NIEM.  USCG, the DHS lead in C2, is
>actively
>>using CoT to transform its C2 operations.  CoT compliments and does
>>not compete
>>with OASIS and IEEE 1512 standards, filling the gap left by the
>>incomplete IEEE
>>1512.4 standard for mobile units (essentially blue force tracking and
>>mobile/portable SA functions).
>>
>>(More information can be obtained from myself or
>>Stephen.Hoogasian@pentagon.af.mil )
>>
>>Again I apologize for any interruption, however I thought some news
>>of progress
>>on this critical problem (federal/state/local/tribal cooperative
>situation
>>awareness) might bring you some small joy!
>>Perhaps the next crisis will include a means to interoperate and
>exchange unit
>>positions, allowing us to work together as one country.
>>Thanks for your time!
>>
>>Matt
>>
>>Matthew Ford Kern, BSEE, CEADODAF,  CEAFEAF VP, EA Practice Manager,
>>Constellation Incorporated
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: mkern at mkern dot com [mailto:mkern@mkern.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 11:22 AM
>>To: 'Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q'
>>Cc: cv@mowg.cap.gov; 'Kluckhuhn, Christopher LCDR'; drobbins@mitre.org;
>'mkern
>>at mkern dot com'
>>Subject: RE: USCG
>>
>>
>>Troy, Chris, Doug:
>>
>>Have I mentioned that you guys are my heroes this week yet?
>>
>>(I love it when a plan comes together.)
>>
>>Matthew Ford Kern, BSEE, CEADODAF,  CEAFEAF VP, EA Practice Manager,
>>Constellation Incorporated
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>________________________________
>>
>>From: Hoogasian Stephen M Col Select AF/A5R-Q
>>[mailto:Stephen.Hoogasian@pentagon.af.mil]
>>Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2008 10:52 AM
>>To: mkern@mkern.com
>>Cc: cv@mowg.cap.gov
>>Subject: USCG
>>
>>
>>
>>Matthew,
>>
>>
>>
>>Take a look!  Bring up the USCG feed.  This is going on real time!
>>Troy ROCKS!
>>So do Kluckhuhn and Doug!
>>
>>
>>
>>http://www.mowg.cap.gov/gesa/CAPsitmap.cgi
>>
>>
>>
>>v/r
>>Hoog
>>
>>
>>
>>Lt Col Stephen Hoogasian
>>Irregular Warfare Requirements
>>HQ USAF/A5R-Q, Rm 5C161
>>
>>Comm: 703-614-4940
>>
>>
>>
>>"Do not follow where the path may lead.  Go instead where there is no
>path and
>>leave a trail." - Emerson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
>--
>Rex Brooks
>President, CEO
>Starbourne Communications Design
>GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
>Berkeley, CA 94702
>Tel: 510-898-0670
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that
>generates this mail.  You may a link to this group and all your TCs in
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-- 
Rex Brooks
President, CEO
Starbourne Communications Design
GeoAddress: 1361-A Addison
Berkeley, CA 94702
Tel: 510-898-0670


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