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Subject: Fw: [humanmarkup] Digest Number 171
(cross post of YahooGroups messages from Aug 24 2001) ----- Original Message ----- From: <humanmarkup@yahoogroups.com> To: <humanmarkup@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 6:15 AM Subject: [humanmarkup] Digest Number 171 > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> > Secure all your Web servers now: Get your FREE Guide and learn to: DEPLOY THE LATEST ENCRYPTION, > DELIVER TRANSPARENT PROTECTION, and More! > http://us.click.yahoo.com/VihfLB/nT7CAA/yigFAA/2U_rlB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > To unsubscribe send an email to: > humanmarkup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > There are 8 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. food for thought > From: "Michael Lacy" <michael_lacy@yahoo.com> > 2. RE: food for thought > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > 3. Re: food for thought > From: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org> > 4. Re: food for thought > From: "Kurt Cagle" <kurt@kurtcagle.net> > 5. RE: food for thought > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > 6. RE: food for thought > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > 7. RE: food for thought > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > 8. Re: food for thought > From: "Michael Lacy" <michael_lacy@yahoo.com> > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:43:35 -0000 > From: "Michael Lacy" <michael_lacy@yahoo.com> > Subject: food for thought > > Music is often considered as a "universal" language for emotion that > can be understood by all people from different backgrounds. Through > music, one can express sadness, anger, humor, elation...in fact, just > about every emotion conceivable that comprise the "human experience." > > I'm wondering if it might make sense to look to music and other > artistic endeavors as guides to the creation of HumanML. The arts can > be considered as vehicles for the expression of human emotions, with > an infinitely wide range of subtlety and directness. By examining > music and understanding the vocabulary used to express different > emotions, we might be able to understand better what it is that makes > us human, that makes us expressive. > > There's no need to reinvent the wheel here (at least that's what I > think)...we just need to modify it to suit the context and > environment in which we are seeking to express ourselves. Music and > the arts are but manifestations of this same principle which we can > look to as guides. > > thoughts? > > -michael lacy > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:52:44 -0500 > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > Subject: RE: food for thought > > Yes, we discussed that given there are some > musicians on the list. Also note that the > Laban Movement Analysis as referenced in the > paper "The EMOTE Model for Shape And Effort" > cited by Rex a few days ago makes references > to this comparison. > > The musical analogy comes up often in discussions > of sequencing, intensity factors, articulation > etc. It's a good comparison. It can't be applied > directly in the sense that it is not an emotion, > but a rendering based on an emotion or evocative > of one. It is tough to get that distinction but vital. > We did a thread on Indian dance drama and ragas > to consider this. > > Len > http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard > > Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. > Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Lacy [mailto:michael_lacy@yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 1:44 PM > To: humanmarkup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [humanmarkup] food for thought > > > Music is often considered as a "universal" language for emotion that > can be understood by all people from different backgrounds. Through > music, one can express sadness, anger, humor, elation...in fact, just > about every emotion conceivable that comprise the "human experience." > > I'm wondering if it might make sense to look to music and other > artistic endeavors as guides to the creation of HumanML. The arts can > be considered as vehicles for the expression of human emotions, with > an infinitely wide range of subtlety and directness. By examining > music and understanding the vocabulary used to express different > emotions, we might be able to understand better what it is that makes > us human, that makes us expressive. > > There's no need to reinvent the wheel here (at least that's what I > think)...we just need to modify it to suit the context and > environment in which we are seeking to express ourselves. Music and > the arts are but manifestations of this same principle which we can > look to as guides. > > thoughts? > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:54:04 -0400 > From: "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@humanmarkup.org> > Subject: Re: food for thought > > (The discussion has moved to OASIS--please check out http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/humanmarkup) and join the new mailing list.) > > Hi Michael, > > This is very insightful. The arts certainly convey human qualities in a manner that goes beyond simply words. HumanML serves as the middle layer--the layer of computer readable, extractable, explicity emotional metadata. Art and music could translate into HumanML, or translate out of HumanML, based on the applications on either end. > > We are currently assembling taxonomies, or classifications from various spheres. Music and art vocabularies could be a great source of inspiration for HumanMarkup. > > Certainly what could aid this process are some standard classification systems of human characteristics through music. Are you coming from a music background yourself? > > Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga > > > Music is often considered as a "universal" language for emotion that > > can be understood by all people from different backgrounds. Through > > music, one can express sadness, anger, humor, elation...in fact, just > > about every emotion conceivable that comprise the "human experience." > > > > I'm wondering if it might make sense to look to music and other > > artistic endeavors as guides to the creation of HumanML. The arts can > > be considered as vehicles for the expression of human emotions, with > > an infinitely wide range of subtlety and directness. By examining > > music and understanding the vocabulary used to express different > > emotions, we might be able to understand better what it is that makes > > us human, that makes us expressive. > > > > There's no need to reinvent the wheel here (at least that's what I > > think)...we just need to modify it to suit the context and > > environment in which we are seeking to express ourselves. Music and > > the arts are but manifestations of this same principle which we can > > look to as guides. > > > > thoughts? > > > > -michael lacy > > > [This message contained attachments] > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:01:38 -0700 > From: "Kurt Cagle" <kurt@kurtcagle.net> > Subject: Re: food for thought > > This is perhaps off topic, but is anyone aware of a MIDI to XML schema map? > I have to wonder about the intersectionbetween an XML-ized MIDI, SMIL and > HumanML ... > > -- Kurt > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michael Lacy" <michael_lacy@yahoo.com> > To: <humanmarkup@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 11:43 AM > Subject: [humanmarkup] food for thought > > > > Music is often considered as a "universal" language for emotion that > > can be understood by all people from different backgrounds. Through > > music, one can express sadness, anger, humor, elation...in fact, just > > about every emotion conceivable that comprise the "human experience." > > > > I'm wondering if it might make sense to look to music and other > > artistic endeavors as guides to the creation of HumanML. The arts can > > be considered as vehicles for the expression of human emotions, with > > an infinitely wide range of subtlety and directness. By examining > > music and understanding the vocabulary used to express different > > emotions, we might be able to understand better what it is that makes > > us human, that makes us expressive. > > > > There's no need to reinvent the wheel here (at least that's what I > > think)...we just need to modify it to suit the context and > > environment in which we are seeking to express ourselves. Music and > > the arts are but manifestations of this same principle which we can > > look to as guides. > > > > thoughts? > > > > -michael lacy > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe send an email to: > > humanmarkup-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 5 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:15:59 -0500 > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > Subject: RE: food for thought > > HyTime grew out of music work and there have been > different efforts to use SGML and musical notation > systems. MIDI being essentially control information > to a synthethizer for patches, GM instruments, > expression parameters, etc. could certainly be > XMLized. The contribution of that to HumanML > seems scarce though, so I'm sure where that goes. > > In the genre example, I borrowed <par> and <seq> > from SMIL 1.0 to demonstrate nesting of chronemic > information to describe actions. It is one > of those overlaps in that scheduling > is vital to almost any simulation or analysis > of time-based information. If you examine > the interpolation components of VRML, you > see similar concepts for key frame-based animation. > > A problem of HumanML will be to decide just > what is high level information and what should > be added in by transformation given that the > downtranslation target will have it's own > representations the closer one gets to the > implementation objects. EMOTE has very > interesting concepts for shaping the motions > of an animated character using a level that > seems to be between what HumanML has described > and what H-anim might use. I am unsure if this > is middleware data or goes in HumanML or H-anim. I am > inclined to think it is a middleware dataset > in which HumanML uses a simple intensity value > to scale an emotion, an EMOTE engine target > gets that and creates a more detailed LMA > based dataset, then the final rendering in > say H-anim or SVG is created. Hard to say > and other opinions on that would be appreciated. > > My concern is mostly that HumanML stay high level > and very easy to use so that the derived languages > get most of the work and the HumanML is repurposable. > Even as we look at domains, we have to ask ourselves > first what the role of HumanML is quite precisely > in the abstraction layer. > > Len > http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard > > Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. > Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:kurt@kurtcagle.net] > > > This is perhaps off topic, but is anyone aware of a MIDI to XML schema map? > I have to wonder about the intersection between an XML-ized MIDI, SMIL and > HumanML ... > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:18:39 -0500 > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > Subject: RE: food for thought > > Ack. I meant to type, "I'm not sure where that goes." > > Len > http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard > > Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. > Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) > > The contribution of that to HumanML > seems scarce though, so I'm sure where that goes. > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 7 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:33:40 -0500 > From: "Bullard, Claude L (Len)" <clbullar@ingr.com> > Subject: RE: food for thought > > Another way to look at that is in terms of > a control language for instruments if you > consider body parts to be instruments. Music > as several markings for expressing a phrase > (eg, legato, staccato) and how to articulate > each or several notes of music. Similarly > midi allows you to set such parameters as > velocity (how hard in theory the key is > struck or how much effort), and shaping > of a note (Attack Decay Sustain Release > or ADSR for short), duration and so forth. > The EMOTE article describes Spreading, > Enclosing, Rising, Sinking, Advancing and > Retreating) for shaped of torso motions, > and claims Effort as a high level term > that reflect inner psychological conditions. > > So, just as in psychology there are multiple > schools for analysis and terminologies, we > are faced with the task of either adapting > some one or all of these, or creating categories > from which any or all of these might be > derived by transformation. A tough problem > and by now the newcomers should have some > idea of what the last number of months > have been about. > > Note that Sean demonstrated with RDF how > one can use a relationship and set to > show rough equivalences and we have > in XML Schemas several mechanisms for > declaring types and derivations of types, > so in terms our definitional tools, this is doable. > Getting the different groups to accept the > equivalences definitionally can be an > arduous task. Caveat vendor. > > Len > http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard > > Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. > Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bullard, Claude L (Len) > My concern is mostly that HumanML stay high level > and very easy to use so that the derived languages > get most of the work and the HumanML is repurposable. > Even as we look at domains, we have to ask ourselves > first what the role of HumanML is quite precisely > in the abstraction layer. > > Len > http://www.mp3.com/LenBullard > > Ekam sat.h, Vipraah bahudhaa vadanti. > Daamyata. Datta. Dayadhvam.h > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Kurt Cagle [mailto:kurt@kurtcagle.net] > > > This is perhaps off topic, but is anyone aware of a MIDI to XML schema map? > I have to wonder about the intersection between an XML-ized MIDI, SMIL and > HumanML ... > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 8 > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 20:35:07 -0000 > From: "Michael Lacy" <michael_lacy@yahoo.com> > Subject: Re: food for thought > > My primary background is actually in engineering and technology. > However, 2 years ago I started playing guitar and have come to the > realization of the enormous expressive capabilities of music and the > arts. By playing a song for a mere 3 minutes, I can express so much > more emotion and subtlety than by trying to describe it in words or > through my day job as software development engineer. I have tapped > into a mechanism that best channels and expresses my inner feelings. > > However, what I have also learned is that understanding of these > emotions by others is COMPLETELY subjective. The people who respond > most to my limited playing capabilities are other, more advanced > musicians who understand the language of music. Alot of my friends > who have a limited musical-emotive vocabulary often tune me out and, > unfortunately, miss out on or do do not understand the emotions I am > expressing to them through music. > > So in order for HumanML to work effectively, there will be the > requirement that both the person expressing him/her self as well as > the the receiver of that information have a common understanding of > the vocabulary used...in this case, HumanML. Additionally, it > requires people to acknowledge and understand their own emotions AS > WELL AS those of others, something that MANY, MANY people cannot and > will not do because it is frightening for them. > > Think about it, if people understood...and I mean truly understood > and empathized with...the emotions of others, there would be alot > less greed in this world. For instance, if Hitler and the Nazis of > WWII Germany understood that the effect of their anger was > catastrophic for millions of people, do you think they would have > done what they did? If they stood in the shoes of the people they > were trying to exterminate and sincerely understood the situation > (i.e. imminent death) that these people were facing, do you think > they still would have carried out the actions they did. Probably not. > > This is a long-winded way of saying that for HumanML to be successful > requires that people get in touch with and acknowledge not only their > own feelings about the world, but more importantly, those of others. > Otherwise. it'll just be another way for people to espouse their own > views without regards to others. In music, true communication occurs > when everyone listens to and responds to one another. That's alot to > ask for, especially through anonymous interface (the internet) where > people do not have to take personal responsibility for their actions. > > sorry about the long response. > > -mike > > > > --- In humanmarkup@y..., "Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga" <rkthunga@h...> > wrote: > > (The discussion has moved to OASIS--please check out > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/humanmarkup) and join the new > mailing list.) > > > > Hi Michael, > > > > This is very insightful. The arts certainly convey human qualities > in a manner that goes beyond simply words. HumanML serves as the > middle layer--the layer of computer readable, extractable, explicity > emotional metadata. Art and music could translate into HumanML, or > translate out of HumanML, based on the applications on either end. > > > > We are currently assembling taxonomies, or classifications from > various spheres. Music and art vocabularies could be a great source > of inspiration for HumanMarkup. > > > > Certainly what could aid this process are some standard > classification systems of human characteristics through music. Are > you coming from a music background yourself? > > > > Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga > > > > > Music is often considered as a "universal" language for emotion > that > > > can be understood by all people from different backgrounds. > Through > > > music, one can express sadness, anger, humor, elation...in fact, > just > > > about every emotion conceivable that comprise the "human > experience." > > > > > > I'm wondering if it might make sense to look to music and other > > > artistic endeavors as guides to the creation of HumanML. The arts > can > > > be considered as vehicles for the expression of human emotions, > with > > > an infinitely wide range of subtlety and directness. By > examining > > > music and understanding the vocabulary used to express different > > > emotions, we might be able to understand better what it is that > makes > > > us human, that makes us expressive. > > > > > > There's no need to reinvent the wheel here (at least that's what > I > > > think)...we just need to modify it to suit the context and > > > environment in which we are seeking to express ourselves. Music > and > > > the arts are but manifestations of this same principle which we > can > > > look to as guides. > > > > > > thoughts? > > > > > > -michael lacy > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >
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