Re: [humanmarkup-comment] Base Schema-Belief

[Rex Brooks <rexb@starbourne.com>]

I will chime in with an agreement. If Rob, if he gets this, could 
acknowledge adding belief to the list of new elements, I would 
appreciate it. I don't think we can attempt to capture "truth" per 
se, but belief as a basic element of the human condition, provided 
one is not raised by wolves in the wilderness, is a valid.

Ciao,
Rex

At 11:09 AM -0400 9/6/02, Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga wrote:
>After reading Len and Rex's comments from yesterday, I started to think
>that we may want to add 'belief' as a Base Schema element.  It is
>tempting to include this within Secondary Schema within culture perhaps,
>but I realize that belief is an aspect of ourselves that lead us to use
>the signs we communicate with fundamentally, just like emotion, and
>intention (which I would like to continue to explore as well).
>
>No one argues that there is something fundamentally "True" in the
>highest sense, although different means of getting there and
>perspectives: through scientific method, philosophy, meditation or
>religion.  Belief is our best approximation of the fundamental Truth.
>Some people may equate their 'belief' as being 100% equal to Truth, and
>that is where all the problems we are having come from--i.e.
>fundamentalism.  The big danger, as both Rex and Len alluded to, is this
>fundamentalism.  By strictly defining our 'beliefs', we may hinder our
>ability to let ourselves probe further, and may discourage us from
>casting healthy doubts.
>
>Thus, in a sense, I feel we are also missing a unifer "ultimateTruth"
>within our definition, but can't think of where it might belong.  After
>all, that is what a belief is ultimately for--to describe an
>'ultimateTruth' that we have yet to form a unified, verifiable,
>complete, and mutually acceptable definition of.  Even though some
>persons in the history of man may have achieved this state of awareness
>through subjective experience, we as a human race have not reached this
>level through objective descriptions.
>
>I'm starting a new thread to be consistent with our naming scheme,
>although I am cutting and pasting some of the earlier content. 
>
>If we can describe belief in some way, while also being able to exactly
>and specifically point out where the distinctions may lie, and make it
>clear that beliefs are not absolute within themselves, then we have a
>better shot at helping dissolve the conflicts between beliefs.  Rigidly
>held beliefs can be more dangerous if strictly defined without such an
>allowance.  That may be the function of Secondary Schema definition, but
>just wanted to keep that in mind.
>
>--------
>Ranjeeth Kumar Thunga
>
>
>
>I have a female co-worker who looked at afghanistan
>and said, "The hippies had it right; free love.  If
>those guys had more sex, they'd be too tired to fight."
>Amusing and maybe there is some truth to it.  Whatever,
>I suspect Jihad fever has an analogue in net flame
>wars:  endorphin addiction.  
>
>To modify the cultural disease, the signs that induce
>absolutism have to have alternative interpretations and
>these alternatives must have cultural value that rewards
>members who espouse and practice the behaviors that
>signify them.   This is a subject that requires deep
>study because simply going to relativism won't work.
>
>The way of the east that teaches compassion, tolerance,
>and self-restraint is one way.   I like it because it
>easy to understand even if difficult to practice 24X7X365.
>
>len
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com]
>
>
>Yes, it can get better. I agree on that and on working on HumanML as one
>means.
>
>Neither am I in serious or deep despair, just a little on the gloomy
>side at the moment as I maneuver myself back to the work at hand. The
>short term manipulation of the Islamic world by al Quaeda and the
>jihad merchants, such as Sheik Mohammed was in the Taliban, is
>worrisome. But both the Islamic world and our world both need to
>start listening and hearing each other, rather than talking past each
>other or shouting "evil" at each other as we have been treated to
>from both sides.
>
>We have the right and duty to defend ourselves and right now that
>means taking measured military and diplomatic actions. When we sink
>to "demonizing" our opponents, no matter how richly we FEEL they
>deserve it, we fall into that monkey trap right alongside the
>Israelis and the Palestinians and al Quaeda.
>
>The problem is the appeal to raw, unthinking emotionalism. Yet when
>our communications fail to take the emotions into account, we also
>fall into a trap of a different kind, but that is another discussion.
>
>One wishes the Islamic women were as powerful as the southern white
>women, and in time, I am reasonably sure they will be, though they
>have a much tougher male-dominated, testosterone-driven culture to
>contend with than women from our western culture. I wish them the
>best in overcoming that domination.
>
>Ciao,
>Rex
>
>P.S. Thanks for the chance to continue relieving myself of these
>burdensome thoughts. Soon I will have no excuses left but to get back
>to work, eh?
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>--------
>
>My guess is that by the time they embrace terrorism,
>it is a little late to modify their behaviors.  At
>that point, they live is a self-organizing and
>possibly closed world.  That is one reason they
>are deuce difficult to penetrate.  Yet I believe
>it necessary to distinguish the urban terrorist
>from the jungle guerilla, and to distinguish between
>the religious activists such as the Saudis who
>formed Al Quaeda from the Palestinian suicide
>bomber and both from the Viet Cong.  I do believe
>that different personal and cultural forces are
>at work even if there are overlapping and similar
>behaviors expressed.
>
>The problems of the Vietnamese and the US were
>on our side of the equation; our fears of communism,
>our arrogance about the rightness of our own systems,
>etc.  The VC were fighting for their own homes.  We
>lost there because we had nothing to win and they
>had everything to lose.  30 years later, we are
>trading partnets.  It can get better.
>
>The Palestinians and Israelis are in a classic
>monkey trap where until each side lets go of the prize,
>they are held fast by what the prize in their hands.
>They will eventually find a way out.  Last weekend
>at the concert we held here in Alabama, in the final
>jam, a dreadlocked black, a jewish princess, a rock
>longhair, three bluegrass rednecks, and so on were
>all playing together under an American flag.  It
>may not seem like much and it doesn't happen as
>often as it should, but my friend, it was proof that
>this is 2002 and not 1950 in Alabama.  Take that from
>one who lived through the civil rights movement up
>front and personal.  It can get better but because
>people work on it and have time.  No, this is not as
>severe as the Middle East, but ask why it didn't get
>that way.  One reason is that when the firehoses and
>the dogs came out, the blacks stood there and took it
>while the world watched.  On their side was a shared
>set of beliefs, a common religion, and frankly, the
>white women of the American South would not put up
>with what they saw on those screens and in the streets
>of our neighborhoods.  Eventually,we took the hands
>of our neighbors and walked together away from the precipice
>of hell, for the sake of their beliefs and the future
>of their children.   It can get better.
>
>The al Quaeda are a different problem.  They have
>jihad fever.   That has to be changed from within their
>own culture; that is, the adherents to Islamic tenets
>have to modify this because this is the dark side
>of religion: a belief in absolutes.   The only recourse
>the west has to deal with them is to identify them,
>hunt them, and kill them.  I wish it were otherwise
>but unless the Islamic community comes to grips with
>its culpability and modifies its support behaviors,
>that is, raising and providing funds, shelter, arms,
>etc, that is how it is.   What we can do
>is work out how our relationships with these cultures
>are enabling them to perceive us as enemies, and that
>I am afraid, will force us to confront what in our
>own systems produces behaviors which they perceive
>as antithetical to their interests.   They say very
>loudly what they think these are.  We don't like
>what we hear and because we have our own share
>of religious fundamentalism, we don't hear it.
>We also have let our economic interests collude
>with these religious interests to justify who and
>what we support.  For example, do you think we
>could modify our unilateral support for Israel and
>pull our forces off the Saudi peninsula?
>
>Again, a monkey trap.  What is the prize in our
>hand that we hold so tightly that keeps us in the trap?
>
>Question:  do you believe that a confrontation of these
>forces is the beginning of Armageddon, the end of the
>world?  If so, then a myth has you by the mental tail.
>
>BTW:  your sculpting is probably your sign competency
>to express some of what you are feeling just as music
>is for me.   As Gudwin posits, competence over multiple
>sign sets is a measure of intelligence.  You are doing
>the right thing.  To feel more positively, you can find
>or create more contexts for that expression.  Everyone
>has a job to discover, a way to express their feelings
>about these events.  Some only raise flags; others
>do their art and work on HumanML.  Lots of simple signs
>can amount to something much larger, but to go there, we
>have to start.  It can get better.
>
>len
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Rex Brooks [mailto:rexb@starbourne.com] [humanmarkup-comment]
>Thoughts on Cultural Blinders and 9/11
>
>
>I am glad you were able to endure long enough to see these larger
>issues. They didn't get there quickly enough for my own personal
>human limits. I appreciate you taking the time to respond this
>thoroughly. My own sense of despair and anger in the face of seeing
>faith portrayed even briefly (and through my own lack of patience) as
>one-dimensional is lessened. I'm less concerned with the terrorists
>as much as I am with our own ability to understand their expressions,
>their signs, and respond to them appropriately. I don't have much
>clue what that response ought to be to successfully reach into their
>cultural context and persuade them to a different course.
>
>---
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-- 
Rex Brooks
Starbourne Communications Design
1361-A Addison, Berkeley, CA 94702 *510-849-2309
http://www.starbourne.com * rexb@starbourne.com