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Subject: RE: [legalxml-econtracts] CSS - "hanging indent" attempts


here you go Jason --- and successfully tested with Mozilla 5.0 -- the solution i
shared before works only for IE, but the solution attached works for both
browsers. Same drill -- the css goes with the xml version. For the html version,
the css is embedded.

Responses to other memos:
>My contention was that John is saying we absoutely must design our XML
>so that CSS is able to style it perfectly.

Jason, that's not what I am saying, nor is it the question for today. I say our
specification must accommodate the final XML presentation of the contract, not a
precursor to the presentation -- people sign the presentation, not the
precursor. Framing the issue in terms of "perfection of browser support for CSS"
as you do throughout this memo, unnecessarily boxes this TC into just one
solution: an XML dialect for a contract. Sure, if our specification is for an
XML dialect, then the only way that it may presented as the contract artifact
itself is by use of CSS. However as you are well aware, I support other
presentation dialects, eg XHTML, XSL-FO and SVG, being annointed by this group
as just as valid as XML/CSS, and have shown repeatedly how to annotate them in a
manner that relates explicitly to an XML dialect crafted specifically for
contract information.

I don't recall that you've ever addressed how someone can exchange an XML
version of the final contract, one that achieves the "presentation perfection"
you're looking for. I think this is the fundamental question for today - are we
exchanging a 'real' contract or not?
=====================================================
Observation 1: Depth of Nesting. Jason has it nested in 5 containers, John has
it nested in 10 containers.

Response: True, because the markup considered the issue of presentation
containers, that is, the "BlockBody"... if those are removed, and they can be in
a default case I guess, then we have the same number, right?
=====================================================
Observation 2: <en> tag: Each piece of text in John's markup is surrounded by
the <en> tag.  This extra container is annoying to have to keep adding when one
is using an XML editor, and something end users will complain about.

Response: You have not said what your alternative is for identifying text
strings within a Paragraph that has specific styling attached to it. While you
complain about the perceived redundancy, you fail to explore why it's there.
=====================================================
Observation 3: <BlockCaption> and <BlockBody>: <BlockCaption> and <BlockBody>
are sometimes present in John's markup, and sometimes absent. It seems the
<BlockCaption> element is used whenever there is a <CaptionTitle> (although
there is an empty CaptionTitle on 6.4(a)(1) - why is that?)

Response: It depends on whether the CaptionTitle is layed-out with the
BlockCaption, or whether it is actually a part of the BlockBody. The empty one
is clearly redundant -- I was modifying another file for the benchmark
challenge.
=====================================================
Jason: Sometimes you don't need a <BlockBody> - there isn't one in
<FirstParagraph> or <FirstSubPart>.  I'm not sure when you do, and when you
don't.

Response: BlockCaptions and BlockBodys only apply to Article, Section, and
Clause elements. Because Paragraphs (and SubParts) are not caption-able, then
there is no need for a BlockCaption or, hence, BlockBody.
=====================================================
Observation 4: Recursive use of Clause element: Confusing for users, i think.

Response: This occurs at level 4 and below. I am not worried about this, since
the great majority of docs will only use 3 levels (important note: I don't view
or handle Lists as you do). It's ironic you complain about a hybrid model that
includes the approach that you wanted originally -- recursion. I think it's a
very savvy way to address the deep nesting requirements that some users will
have, that some applications will accommodate. In my product, I simply call
these "SubClauses" but then again, I don't expose users to the DTD. Those that
wish to use a DTD-driven entry application I think won't be so terribly
confused -- if they are, they'll undoubtedly rearrange their content so that
there's 3 or fewer levels. Not a problem in my mind.
=====================================================
Observation 5: <FirstParagraph>, <FirstSubPart>. John's XML distinguishes the
FirstParagraph from a subsequent Paragraph; similarly for FirstSubPart.  Jason's
XML makes no such distinction. This might not be necessary if you assume
complete browser support for CSS2 selectors - John what has been your experience
with web browser support for CSS2 selectors? Sometimes the element in
<FirstParagraph> is called <FirstSubPart>, sometimes its called <SubPart>.  I'm
not sure whether this distinction
is made for styling purposes?

Response: CSS only supports a selector for 1st child, not for first child of a
type. And yes - the FirstSubPart is equally distinguished from SubPart as
FirstPara is from Para, for styling purposes. I have no requirement that
FirstSubPart or FirstPara must be used if one does not need to distinguish the
styling of a subsequent SubPart or Para. I have been thinking that a
FirstArticle, FirstSection, and FirstClause are equally needed. BTW, thanks to
Dave Marvitt for SubPart -- it's really very handy.

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jason Harrop [mailto:jharrop@speedlegal.com]
>Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 3:52 AM
>To: legalxml-econtracts@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: [legalxml-econtracts] CSS - "hanging indent" attempts
>
>
>Hi
>
>Please find attached various attempts to get hanging indents to work
>using CSS2 stuff.
>
>Apparently, example 3 works in Internet Explorer (6?), though I don't
>have IE running on this computer.
>
>None of them work well enough in Mozilla 1.2.1 to amount to a
>presentable "presentation format", although some of them come close.
>
>cheers,
>
>Jason
>
(a) The Tenant's request for remittance shall be accompanied by (A) a certificate of Tenant (in form reasonably satisfactory to Landlord) stating that an amount at least equal to the Reimbursement Amount has been paid to contractors, subcontractors, materialmen, engineers, architects or other persons (whose names and addresses and a description of the work involved shall be stated) who have furnished labor, materials, supplies, permits or services for the work in question (collectively, "Contractors") and that to Tenant's best knowledge (after due inquiry) there is no outstanding indebtedness due for labor, materials, supplies, permits or services in any manner connected with the work in question which if unpaid might be the basis for any type of lien on the Leased Premises or any part thereof, and (B) a certificate of the architect or engineer who prepared the related Plans and Specifications (in form reasonably
LEGALXML     {display:block}
Clause       {display:block}
BlockBody    {position:absolute;left:5%;}
BlockCaption {position:absolute;width:5%}

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<?xml-stylesheet type="text/css" href='hangingindent.css'?>
<LEGALXML>
    <Clause>
        <BlockCaption><en>(a)</en></BlockCaption>
        <BlockBody><en>
        The Tenant's request for remittance shall be
        accompanied by (A) a certificate of Tenant (in
        form reasonably satisfactory to Landlord) stating
        that an amount at least equal to the Reimbursement
        Amount has been paid to contractors,
        subcontractors, materialmen, engineers, architects
        or other persons (whose names and addresses and a
        description of the work involved shall be stated)
        who have furnished labor, materials, supplies,
        permits or services for the work in question
        (collectively, "Contractors") and that to Tenant's
        best knowledge (after due inquiry) there is no
        outstanding indebtedness due for labor, materials,
        supplies, permits or services in any manner
        connected with the work in question which if
        unpaid might be the basis for any type of lien on
        the Leased Premises or any part thereof, and (B) a
        certificate of the architect or engineer who
        prepared the related Plans and Specifications (in
        form reasonably
        </en></BlockBody>
    </Clause>
</LEGALXML>



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