RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for URN namespaces

[Christopher B Ferris <chrisfer@us.ibm.com>]

This link is to the W3C TAG draft finding
on namespace documents:
        http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/nsDocuments/

Hopefully, that will help.

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
phone: +1 508 234 2986

"Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu>
wrote on 06/19/2007 06:46:25 PM:

> Christopher:
> That is indeed clearer, but my concern is still
with the idea of a 
> “namespace document”: not sure what such an artefact is intended
to 
> be or to do (no Confucius please David) or indeed how an RDDL 
> document fits such a bill, particularly as it doesn’t seem to have
> any schema or prescribed model behind it.
>  
> But I can see also that we may be talking at
cross purposes on 
> different but related issues…
>  
> Regards,
>  
> Peter
>  
> From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: 19 June 2007 13:32
> To: Peter F Brown
> Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents for
> URN namespaces
>  
> 
> Possibly, my response was poorly communicated. What I was trying to
> convey is that because a namespace 
> is an abstraction and not a thing/artefact, that a namespace 
> __document__, something that fully describes 
> the namespace, is an effective manifestation of the virtual abstract
> resource (namesapce) that  is identified by 
> the namespace URI. 
> 
> Cheers, 
> 
> Christopher Ferris
> STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> phone: +1 508 234 2986 
> 
> "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007
03:21:09 PM:
> 
> > RDDL does not help identify; it helps describe and in a highly
> > context specific way 
> >   
> > Peter 
> >   
> > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com] 
> > Sent: 18 June 2007 17:42
> > To: Peter F Brown
> > Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents
for 
> > URN namespaces 
> >   
> > 
> > Peter, you wrote: 
> > 
> > > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find
anything 
> > > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except,
well, 
> > > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced.
> > 
> > If a RDDL isn't someting that helps identify the artefact 
> > identified, when that artefact is a namespace, 
> > then I don't know what it is. 
> > 
> > A namespace is an abstraction. It has an identifier. A namespace
is 
> > NOT a schema document. I might 
> > have multiple 'schema' that each are legitimate means of validating
> > a document that includes 
> > elements and attributes for a given namespace (e.g. XML Schema,
RNG,
> > Schematron, DTD, etc.) 
> > They may be isomorphic or complimentary in nature. 
> > 
> > Having a namespace document (RDDL) available as the resource
> > retrieved when you dereference 
> > the namespace URI helps 'identify the artefact' that is referenced
> > by that URI. In the case of the 
> > namespace documents that have been designed for OASIS specs,
the 
> > informative value is increased by 
> > virtue of the fact that the specifications which define the 
> > semantics of the namespace components 
> > are also linked and the namespace versioning policy is provided.
> > 
> > Cheers, 
> > 
> > Christopher Ferris
> > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> > phone: +1 508 234 2986 
> > 
> > "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote on 06/18/2007
10:46:11 AM:
> > 
> > > Of course it all depends on what you want to use the identifier
for.
> > > I would argue, always have argued, that you shouldn't find
anything 
> > > at the end of a URI that purports to be an identifier except,
well, 
> > > something that helps identify the artefact being referenced.
An RDDL
> > > document is not an identifier - it is a resource descriptor;
it is 
> > > intended to provide information about the identified artifact
but, I
> > > would argue, is not the only thing that could be relevant
at such an
> > > end point. As such there *should* be a distinction between
the 
> > > namespace urn and any mechanism to dereference it in a particular
> > > context for a particular purpose - whether OASIS provides
it os not,
> > > is another question.
> > > 
> > > The Topic Map community understands this intimately in their
> > > distinction between a "subject identifier" and
a "subject indicator"
> > > and didn't get lost down the W3C blind alley of confusing
labels and
> > > resources à la RDF... sorry, shouldn't have dragged that
up ;-)
> > > 
> > > Peter
> > > 
> > > ==================
> > > From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> > > Sent: 18 June 2007 16:03
> > > To: Peter F Brown
> > > Cc: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org; robin.cover@oasis-open.org
> > > Subject: RE: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents
for 
> > > URN namespaces
> > > 
> > > 
> > > The OASIS TAB has published guidelines for namespace URIs
(amongst 
> > > other subjects related to 
> > > metadata) here: 
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNaming.html
> > > 
> > > These guidelines include recommendation that namespace URIs
be HTTP 
> > > scheme URIs and that there 
> > > be a published RDDL document at the namespace URI location.
URNs are
> > > permitted for use, but HTTP 
> > > scheme URIs are preferred/recommended since they can be
resolved 
> > > without additional machinery. Note 
> > > that OASIS hs no plans to implement such a resolution mechanism:
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.
> > > org/specGuidelines/namingGuidelines/resourceNamingCommentaryV07.
> > > html#urnResolution 
> > > 
> > > An example of these guidelines in action can be found with
the WS-RX
> > > TC's WS-RM namespace URI: 
> > >         http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/wsrm/200702
> > > 
> > > Frankly, I don't personally see any material benefit to
use of a URN
> > > scheme namespace. I suspect that 
> > > some believe that by using a URN, they have created a 'permanent
> > > identifier'. Well, frankly, there is no 
> > > reason why an HTTP scheme URI cannot be 'permanent'. It
isn't as if 
> > > OASIS is going to drop off the face of 
> > > the earth anytime soon. 
> > > 
> > > Cheers, 
> > > 
> > > Christopher Ferris
> > > STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > > email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/chrisferris
> > > phone: +1 508 234 2986 
> > > 
> > > "Peter F Brown" <peter@pensive.eu> wrote
on 06/18/2007 09:43:24 AM:
> > > 
> > > > Paul:
> > > > I think the objective is laudable but I don't see the
point of the
> > > > "http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns="
part of the statement. Surely,
> > > > if some application wants to do something with the
"pure" (and on its
> > > > own non-deferenceable) urn, then surely it will ba
equipped tomake that
> > > > call using http get or whatever.
> > > > 
> > > > By effectively tying a namespace to a derefereceable
network endpoint
> > > > and to specific and prescribed dereferencing mechanism,
is there not a
> > > > danger that you:
> > > > - either limit what can be legitimately found at the
network endpoint to
> > > > an RDDL file only, cutting out other possible uses
of the namespace;
> > > > - or creating false expectations and possible architectural
problems
> > > > when unpredictable results come from finding something
other than a RDDL
> > > > document at the end of the pipe.
> > > > 
> > > > On the other hand, I'd be in favour of a mechanism
by which RDDL
> > > > documents, when available, can be accessed using a
prescribed OASIS
> > > > managed URL to which you would tack the namespace urn.
> > > > 
> > > > Regards,
> > > > 
> > > > Peter
> > > > 
> > > > -------------
> > > > Peter F Brown
> > > > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group
> > > > Founder, Pensive.eu
> > > > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model
> > > > Lecturer at XML Summer School
> > > > ---
> > > > Personal:
> > > > +43 676 610 0250
> > > > http://public.xdi.org/=Peter.Brown
> > > > www.XMLbyStealth.net
> > > > www.xmlsummerschool.com
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Paul Denning [mailto:pauld@mitre.org] 
> > > > Sent: 30 May 2007 18:45
> > > > To: oasis-member-discuss@lists.oasis-open.org
> > > > Subject: [oasis-member-discuss] OASIS namespace documents
for URN
> > > > namespaces
> > > > 
> > > > Some OASIS TC's use an HTTP URI when they define an
XML 
> > > > Namespace.  Some TC's have started using RDDL
as a namespace document 
> > > > when these namespace URI's are dereferenced using HTTP
GET.
> > > > 
> > > > Other OASIS TC's use URN's to identify their XML Namespace.
> > > > 
> > > > I suggest that OASIS provide a mechanism to resolve
a namespace 
> > > > document (RDDL or other) using HTTP and passing in
the namespace URN 
> > > > in a query parameter.
> > > > 
> > > > For example,
> > > > 
> > > > http://www.oasis-open.org/namespace?ns=urn:oasis:names:tc:emergency:EDXL
> > > > :DE:1.0
> > > > 
> > > > would return a RDDL document associated with the EDXL-DE
namespace.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Paul
> > > > 
> > > >