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Subject: Re: [office-collab] Multiple changes
Hi,
some insight to Apache OpenOffice (incubating)/OpenOffice.org change
tracking:
- Yes, AOO tries to be "intelligent" regarding changes made by a certain
author to her/his own changes.
- making a change to change in a certain time frame - I think these are
minutes - are "combined"; even if the document has been save-close-reopened
in between. Thus, we you delete a character that you have inserted before
you end up with no change.
- just start with an empty document and activate change tracking. Then type
some characters, but wait at least a minute between each character. You
will end up with several tracked changes - one for each character.
- I hope that a "session" ends at least when another author has touched the
document.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards
Oliver-Rainer Wittmann
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From: Patrick Durusau <patrick@durusau.net>
To: office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org
Date: 20.09.2012 22:41
Subject: Re: [office-collab] Multiple changes
Sent by: <office-collab@lists.oasis-open.org>
Svante,
OK, trying again:
When you say:
Not being saved. I can rewrite a sentence a dozen times , in the end
it is only saved the delta from the start and the end of the session.
In other words the operations are being compressed to express the
information set representing the session delta.
What is a session?
If I save my document with tracking on and change a change (deleting the
"b" character) that was tracked, without accepting the changes:
<text:change-start text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>a<text:change-end
text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>
Previously, before the save, this read:
<text:change-start text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>ab<text:change-end
text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>
Now I save and *close* the file, is that a session?
<text:change-start text:change-id="ct139634712754456"/>a<text:change-end
text:change-id="ct139634712754456"/>
IDs get changed on reload, but changing a change, is still not captured,
after save and close of file.
So far, at least in the OpenOffice implementation:
1) save does not end a session
2) save and closing document does not end a session
3) ending change tracking does not end a session
Of course, OpenOffice does not implement "to be specified operations based
CT" but that means we have to define what is meant by "session."
I remain convinced this is possible or I would not be pushing so hard on
it.
Hope you are having a great day!
Patrick
On 09/20/2012 03:57 PM, Svante Schubert wrote:
On 20.09.2012 15:26, Patrick Durusau wrote:
Svante,
On 09/20/2012 08:35 AM, Svante Schubert wrote:
Hi Patrick,
<snip>
When forward progress of the text stops? When I
stop deleting the inserted text? When the cursor
has moved off the inserted text (after
deletions/additions)? Or the cursor has left the
inserted text for more than 5 seconds? After a
save?
Why shall we care? This is absolutely an implementation
detail of the application, all we have to care about is
that similar changes are able to be reflected by
different set(s) of operations, which all have in common
that they have the same information set, resulting in the
end into an equal change.
For instance, instead of three operations:
1. insert "a" in paragraph 1 at position 1
2. insert "b" in paragraph 1 at position 2
3. insert "c" in paragraph 1 at position 3
The application might as well sent one operation:
1. insert "abc" in paragraph 1 at position 1
AFAIK Google Docs is pushing every change right away to
the server, like editing in a field using AJAX.
We should care because we are *not* writing a protocol for
interchange of change tracking information.
I suggest we do not invest too much energies to focus on what we
should *not* do, who has a benefit from that attitude?
Focus on what we are able to archive for our goal of change-racking.
To allow an ODF application to undo changes made by another ODF
application has much to do of of the interchange of change
information. But perhaps we are just again at cross-purposes..
We are writing a format to track changes in a file format for
reading and presentation to a user (same or another user), post
change. On the same or a different application.
What is meant by: "..resulting in the end of an equal change?"
That the state of the document is the same.
I perform the following operations:
1. insert "a" in paragraph 1 at position 1
2. insert "b" in paragraph 1 at position 2
3. insert "c" in paragraph 1 at position 3
I move off that changed text and perform changes elsewhere.
I return to the abc text, which shows "change" in my interface
and:
4. delete "c" in paragraph 1 at position 3
Question: Is that reflected in the *markup syntax* that is
saved as part of the document?
Not being saved. I can rewrite a sentence a dozen times , in the end
it is only saved the delta from the start and the end of the session.
In other words the operations are being compressed to express the
information set representing the session delta.
Here is what I get with the latest version of OpenOffice:
<text:change-start text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>
ab<text:change-end text:change-id="ct139634698526728"/>
The rest of the changes tracking:
def in paragraph 2 at positions 1, 2, 3
ghi in paragraph 3 at positions 1, 2, 3
I conclude that changes to changes are not tracked in
OpenOffice.
Sure.
That could be a *serious* failing if we are tracking changes by
authors and a subsequent author can change my change and it
still shows up as my change, albeit not as I changed it.
No problem as far as I see...
Hope you are having a great day!
Same to you,
Svante
Patrick
Changing the position pointer (start or end) may be
part of a definition of change but it is a fairly
crude one.
Only if the position pointer is part of the document
state to be changes, AFAIK OOo is saving it into the
settings.xml properties.
Otherwise I refer to the beginning of this mail, a change
is reflected by an operation call upon the document.
Hope you are having a great day!
Patrick
Hope you are having a great day as well!
Svante
On 09/20/2012 05:49 AM, Svante Schubert wrote:
Hi Patrick,
On 19.09.2012 17:04, Patrick Durusau wrote:
Svante,
On 09/19/2012 08:35 AM, Svante Schubert
wrote:
Hi Patrick,
<snip>
That is at what time does the
state of the text become "fixed"
so that
change tracking is engaged again?
With "fixed" you might as well
think about a
compression/condensation of
operations. For example, if
someone inserts a word and
deletes it again,
it will not occur in the CT,
although there had been two
operations.
That was my question.
You are presuming a model that does not
track changes to changes.
Might be philosophical, as every operation
creates a new independent
document state. Therefore two (or more)
sequential operations changing
the same data, could be interpreted either as
two (or more) independent
changes of the document state or as a change
of a change.
After realizing both views are equivalent it
is much easier to work
solely with the prior model, where each
change is independent and
movable along the sequence of operations
(presuming to do the required
OT adaption during movement, i.e. whenever
passing a create/delete
operation that influence the position of the
moving operation
de/increase the position integer).
Which is one presumption but perhaps
not the one that the TC desires
to make.
The TC is likely to favor the easiest and
efficient model being offered.
Can think of compression/condensation
of operations but that means the
CT syntax has to record multiple
changes, say make bold and italic
instead of separate operations of bold,
then italic (on the same text).
From a abstract high level view, changing
the style on text is nothing
more than an change of properties on a
sequence of the document. Someone
might change a single property or multiple
properties. Latter might be
done via operations by either passing all
properties along or defining a
set beforehand. Someone might even have the
vision that some style sets
are being defined before the operations
occurs (to follow our convention
over configuration approach), either within
the document (as a given
style set) or preferable within the ODF
specification, by "style blends"
from the application vendors. For instance,
the "heading 1" style set
might be defined before hand, instead of
passing the styles for every
document being opened.
Various compressions are thinkable, all they
have to have in common is
to keep the information set equivalent.
And, it means we have to define when
compression/condensation occurs
and how it is recorded in syntax.
Uncertain yet, if we have to be necessarily
such strict. We definitely
have to define what operations are
equivalent. We could even come up
with a normalized form of operations (the
most efficient form of
operations to be exchanged).
Not objecting to your answer but it
leaves out a lot of detail. ;-)
Sure, just wanted to keep the mail short ;)
Hope you are having a great day!
Patrick
Hope you are having a great day as well!
Svante
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--
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC
26300
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
Twitter: patrickDurusau
--
Patrick Durusau
patrick@durusau.net
Former Chair, V1 - US TAG to JTC 1/SC 34
Convener, JTC 1/SC 34/WG 3 (Topic Maps)
Editor, OpenDocument Format TC (OASIS), Project Editor ISO/IEC 26300
Co-Editor, ISO/IEC 13250-1, 13250-5 (Topic Maps)
Another Word For It (blog): http://tm.durusau.net
Homepage: http://www.durusau.net
Twitter: patrickDurusau
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