Re: [office] renewed proposal for new position and space attributes for the list level

[Thomas Zander <zander@kde.org>]

Hmm, reading your email it seems I was being quite unclear; all your answers 
indicate my points were not getting across.

On Monday 05 March 2007 14:55, Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software Engineer - 
Sun Microsystems wrote:
> > I understand. I just don't agree with it.
> > Its based on the incorrect assumption that the layout of a list should be
> > decoupled from a paragraph style.
>
> This is correct assumption - a paragraph style isn't needed to define
> the layout of a list.
> Please refer to the ODF specification part, where it is said that a list
> style has to be coupled with a paragraph style.

I was talking about the typographical layout. Meaning the positioning of the 
list item relative to the page and paragraph.
Not sure what 'layout' you are referring to.

> > Its also based on the incorrect assumption that a list-style should
> > describe more then one list.  There is no need, and from a users
> > perspective I've found that it doesn't make a whole lot of sense either.
>
> I didn't say something about specifying more than one list with one list
> style.
> I'm talking about specifying with one list style the list level styles
> of the first 10 list levels.

Ok, I'll try again;
A list-style does not have to describe more then 1 list-level.  You can use 
multiple list-styles for 1 list that has several levels.
Having 1 list-style describe 10 list-levels does not make a whole lot of sense 
either.

> > And I think you just proved my point; a liststyle with a random number of
> > list-levels being defined (you have to admit 10 is a pretty randomly
> > chosen number) brings a lot of inconsistencies.
>
> I strongly - very very strongly - disagree.

Clear.
However; this point you brought up a couple of mails ago:

  "my proposal you will got the possibility to specify the complete 
  list item layout for 10 list levels. For each list level, you can 
  specify the indent attributes in *one* style - namely the list style.
  If the indent attributes can't be specified in the list style, *ten*
  additional paragraph styles are needed to fulfill this use case."

One list style uses the indent options of upto 10 paragraph styles.
You correctly point out that this is a bit odd.  The reason this is odd, you 
claim, is that the list-style should not only include 10 levels, it should 
also include the indent for those 10 levels.

Now; take a step back and see that if you think of a list-style as being a 
style that describes one, and no more, list-level. Then you can again combine 
that with a paragraph-style and get the full set of indented possibilities.

Sometimes you are so much into the way things have been done for ages that you 
miss the obvious inconsistencies in the way thats been done.
In other words;
if you think its a problem that you have 10 paragraph-styles to go with 1 list 
style; try simplifying instead of making it more complex.  Try specifying 
only one 1 list-level in that list-style.  And suddenly your problem goes 
away.

> > I have no problem with OOo working with that combination of list-levels,
> > but I believe that if you have a problem with the inconsistency that this
> > gives you should fix it in OOo, not in ODF.  The inconsistency here is
> > that while list-styles can hold 10 levels, paragraph-styles can't.
>
> About what inconsistencies in OpenOffice.org you're talking about? I
> didn't know any.

See my quote from you above.
You stated you think its a bad thing that you need to change 10 paragraph 
styles for that 1 list-style.
This mapping of 10-to-1 is inconsistent. Try bringing it back to 1-to-1.

> > What about making using the existing behavior of style-inheritance to
> > alleviate your concerns?
>
> What kind of style inheritance you want to introduce for list styles?

I was not talking about list-style inheritance.
I was talking about paragraph-style inheritance.
You, again, worried about the 10-to-1 mapping.  What about making those 10 
paragraph styles inherit smartly. If you want, you can make that invisible to 
the user. Then you can alter just 1 paragraph style, and all paragraph-styles 
inheriting from it will follow. This would get your problem fixed.

Hope that clears some things up.
-- 
Thomas Zander

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