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Subject: Re: [office] Do you agree, that the list style of a list belongs tothe style markup of a document?


Hi Florian,

I'm a little but surprised that we seem to discuss the counting of 
<text:list> elements now. In my opinion, we have made the decision that 
the counter of lists is set up by the list structure rather than the 
list style already when we have accepted the ODF 1.0 specification. Do 
you want to alter that decision?

My understanding was the topics we wanted to address are the counting of 
numbered paragraphs, and some minor enhancements to lists that add some 
flexibility to the style of the numbers (but not to its counting). Is 
that correct? If yes, I think it would be helpful if we could separate 
any other discussions from the discussions of the above two topics.

Thanks

Michael




Florian Reuter wrote:
> Hi Oliver,
> 
> thats one point of view. But I really think that this is *not* the typical "office applications" view to it.
> 
> Let me give you an example. Suppose you have a document like this:
> <sample>
> We should do:
> 1. Bla bla bla
> 2. bla bla bla
> 3. bla bla bla
> 
> We should not do:
> 1. Bla bla bla
> 2. bla bla bla
> 3. bla bla bla
> </sample>
> Suppose both lists use the same list-style "L1". So in ODF and according to your lasted proposal this will be like
> <text:list list-style="L1" text:id="id1_1">
> <text:list-header>We should do:</text:list-header>
> <text:list-item>Bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> <text:list-item>bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> <text:list-item>bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> </text:list>
> <text:p/>
> <text:list list-style="L1" text:id="id1_2">
> <text:list-header>We should not do:</text:list-header>
> <text:list-item>Bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> <text:list-item>bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> <text:list-item>bla bla bla</text:list-item>
> </text:list>
> 
> So now lets suppose the editor of the above sample document decides to number the "should not dos" with roman numbers.
> So we will change the style "L1" to roman and end up with the following document
> <sample>
> We should do:
> I. Bla bla bla
> II. bla bla bla
> III. bla bla bla
> 
> We should not do:
> I. Bla bla bla
> II. bla bla bla
> III. bla bla bla
> </sample>
> Althought he only wanted to change the number of the "should not dos" to roman. But since he changed the style he
> changed both. I agreee with you that this is the excepted behaviour with a paragraph or character style but this is not
> the expected behaviour in a list.
> 
> So I really believe that every office application (even KWord :-)) will --at the end -- present the user a "1:1 mapping
> between list style and counter domain". Since thats the expected behaviour of the users. So OOo for example had to
> internally make a copy of the style and attach is to the list and then change the style...
> 
> So I really see no value in breaking this 1:1 relationship. In fact my fear is that we impose extra costs to ODF
> procedding since every office application has to establish this 1:1 relationship on loading.
> 
> My two cents,
> 
> ~Florian
> 
> P.S.
> Does the above example use your text:id in the right way. So the text:id breaks that "continue" rule of adjacent list
> styles, right?
> 
> 
> 
>>>> Oliver-Rainer Wittmann - Software engineer - Sun Microsystems Inc <Oliver-Rainer.Wittmann@Sun.COM> 03/14/07 9:30 AM
>>>>
> 
> But, I've also got some questions to you, Florian:
> - Do you agree, that the list style of a list belongs to the style
> markup of a document?
> In my opinion, the list style of a list belongs to the style markup.
> - Do you agree, that in ODF documents the style markup has to be
> separated from the content markup and that leaving out the style
> markup of a document doesn't change the content structure/meaning?
> In my opinion, this is the case.
> - Do you agree, that it is a very bad idea for ODF to define that
> style markup define/influence the content structure - namely using the
> list style of list items/numbered paragraphs to define, which list
> items/numbered paragraphs form a list?
> In my view, it is a bad idea.



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