To build on what Rich said, the ideal thing is that as best as possible they way one would label a group is the way it is captured in the ODF file. This is done in two ways:
1. Make sure the ODF radio/check-box group encoding includes a way to encode the label [a job of the ODF spec.]
2. Have ODF apps that "do the right thing by default", and ideally make it more difficult to "get it wrong" -> the user interface for labeling a group should encode the label properly [a job for the ODF accessibility guidelines]
To your questions:
As Duane points out, the issue of contradicting group definitions could be resolved by defining a resolution mechanism. But before we go down that road, I'd like to see whether this new way of defining radio button groups in fact adds any expressivity to ODF, or is it merely an equivalent method of defining groups. I'm not a big fan of adding features twice. It is hard enough adding them once. So my questions are: 1) Do we have a problem with radio button accessibility in ODF 1.1? 2) If so, does this proposal address that problem? 3) If not, is this proposal allow implementations to express something that cannot already be expressed by the existing grouping mechanism? 4) If so, what new does it allow implementations to express?
I'm not certain yet whether we do or don't. More research might be needed.
When I use OOo 2.4 to create a Button Group, the title/label of the group box is both visible, and scoping the radio buttons inside it. It may be redundant with other information (e.g. the form:name attribute). But it appears the information is there. Need to test with assistive technologies to see if the ODF apps expose it properly, but that isn't a format specification issue.
I don't fully understand the proposal, nor what it provides that doesn't appear to already be present. Perhaps I am missing something?
Regards,
Peter Korn
Accessibility Architect & Principal Engineer,
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
OFF547CBD4.62882F9D-ON8625749C.006F33EA-8625749C.00702A88@us.ibm.com" type="cite">Rob,
Grouping helps accessibility. Radio buttons are a form of single selection. By encompassing them in a group you know they are part of the "select." This is not new to accessibility. In fact there is an accessibility API role called radiogroup.
Now for the name. If there is a visible name assigned to the group ... think of it as a label we will need to know that. ODF makes use of "names" in drawing objects. That is typically a unique name which I did not want to confuse with the "label" for the radio group.
So, the name or label I am referring to would be "Primitives" below. A screen reader user would tab to the first focused radio button and say "Primitives: radio button 4xLine"
Make sense?
Rich Schwerdtfeger
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus
Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus
08/05/08 01:02 PM
To
office@lists.oasis-open.org, office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
cc
Subject
Re: [office-accessibility] Re: [office] Proposal for Radio Button grouping
Backing up a little bit.
This feature proposal came up on Monday's call:
http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/Grouping_for_Radio_Elements
Since the proposer claimed that it had an accessibility impact: "Grouping
adds additional structure and helps accessibility" I wanted to evaluate
this specific claim. In particular, I was not aware that we had a
accessibility defect with the way radio buttons are defined in ODF 1.1.
Do we?
The proposer also claims "Currently ODF provides not way to group radio
buttons. The new attribute will add grouping support. "
If grouping means "to associate the radio buttons into a group of
mutually-exclusive controls" then I think we already have grouping support
in ODF 1.1, via the common name mechanism borrowed from HTML. If the
proposer is intending some other grouping semantics, then this needs
clarification.
As Duane points out, the issue of contradicting group definitions could be
resolved by defining a resolution mechanism. But before we go down that
road, I'd like to see whether this new way of defining radio button groups
in fact adds any expressivity to ODF, or is it merely an equivalent method
of defining groups. I'm not a big fan of adding features twice. It is
hard enough adding them once.
So my questions are:
1) Do we have a problem with radio button accessibility in ODF 1.1?
2) If so, does this proposal address that problem?
3) If not, is this proposal allow implementations to express something
that cannot already be expressed by the existing grouping mechanism?
4) If so, what new does it allow implementations to express?
-Rob
Malte.Timmermann@Sun.COM wrote on 08/05/2008 01:28:12 PM:
> I also didn't understand the need for group names when the existing name
> can do the same. The name even doesn't have to be anything reasonable,
> since it's IMHO internally used only, nothing the user or AT must
> see/read. (A sighted user also won't see it when just using the form).
>
> If the user should see anything, it's then up to the author to provide a
> group box or something else, which then can have a name and description.
>
> Which leads me to the question: Very often you don't have group boxes
> anymore, but simply a label, maybe with some line.
>
> How can I specify that the label belongs to the group?
>
> Make the XML elements children of that element?
>
> Malte.
>
> Bob Jolliffe wrote, On 05.08.08 18:24:
> > Thinking some more about grouping, I still don't see thast there is
any
> > need to have a group-name for radio buttons. They are already
logically
> > grouped by the name. I imagine a screenreader, for example, would
treat
> > the set in the same way as a select control and read "select w,x,y or
z"
> > for the named radio buttons.
> >
> > Checkboxes (and other controls) on the other hand may indeed benefit
> > from grouping in order to render the semantics of "select all of the
> > following which apply". Perhaps this grouping could be reasonably
> > achieved through a <form:frame> element which already does support
> > <form:name>, <form:label> and <form:title> attributes. As a
> > recommendation one could then specify that all input controls which
form
> > a coherent group should be contained within a <form:frame> with a
> > name/label/title which could be exposed to the accessibility API
> > (regardless of whether this frame is a visible element or not). This
> > seems to be the closest equivalent of a html frameset.
> >
> > Alternatively these, and perhaps all, elements should have a
> > form:group-name attribute, but I prefer the approach above.
> >
> > Regards
> > Bob
> >
> > 2008/8/5 Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com
> > <mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>>
> >
> > Rob,
> >
> > We will need to ensure there is a name we can expose to the
> > accessibility API. Is form:group-name or name="string" the name of
> > the group that will be rendered? If not we will need to add
> > <svg:title> somewhere in there for the short name.
> >
> > Rich
> >
> >
> > Rich Schwerdtfeger
> > Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist
> > Chair, IBM Accessibility Architecture Review Board
> > blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/schwer
> > Inactive hide details for Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM@LotusRobert
> > Weir/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus
> >
> >
> > *Robert Weir/Cambridge/IBM@Lotus*
> >
> > 08/04/08 10:29 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > To
> >
> > office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org
> > <mailto:office-accessibility@lists.oasis-open.org>
> >
> > cc
> >
> > office@lists.oasis-open.org <mailto:office@lists.oasis-open.org>
> >
> > Subject
> >
> > [office] Proposal for Radio Button grouping
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > As you probably know, ODF currently defines the exclusive
selection
> > semantics of radio controls based on radio controls with the same
name,
> > similar to how this is done in HTML:
> >
> > ODF 1.1, section 11.3.14: "The <form:radio> element describes
> > controls
> > which act like check boxes except that when several radio buttons
share
> > the same control name they are mutually exclusive. When one button
> > is on,
> > all of the other buttons with the same name are off. If no radio
> > button is
> > initially on, the way in which the application chooses which
button to
> > turn on initially is undefined."
> >
> > On today's ODF TC call the following ODF 1.2 proposal was
discussed:
> > http://wiki.oasis-open.org/office/Grouping_for_Radio_Elements
> >
> > This proposal would add a form:group-name attribute to the
form:radio
> > element in section 11.3.14, as an alternative way to specify
grouped
> > radio
> > buttons. It is not stated how to resolve situations where both
> > grouping
> > methods are in simultaneous, possibly contradictory use.
> >
> > The Proposer has requested a vote on this proposal for next
Monday. If
> > the Accessibility SC has any comments, please send them to the TC
by
> > Friday.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Rob
> >
> >
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