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Subject: Re: [office] Data Grid Size element proposal


On Fri, 2008-11-21 at 18:09 -0800, Warren Turkal wrote:
> I don't really see the problem with an error being caused by a
> reference to a cell outside the user agent's range going away when
> opening the doc in a user agent with a greater number of cells. I
> could only see that mattering if you rely on the error for some logic
> in your spreadsheet. That just seems like a bad idea.
> 
> But maybe I am being dense here. If so, could you please give a
> concrete and real world example?

Let's see:
The following formula is from
http://theimmersivelife.blogspot.com/2008/08/tools-of-trade-google-apps-as.html
=ARRAYFORMULA(OFFSET(A1,INT(MAX(NOT(ISBLANK(C3:C200))*(COLUMNS($B1:
$IW1)*ROW(C3:C200)+COLUMN(C3:C200)))/COLUMNS($B1:
$IW1))-1.0,MOD(MAX(NOT(ISBLANK(C3:C200))*(COLUMNS($B1:
$IW1)*ROW(C3:C200)+COLUMN(C3:C200)))/COLUMNS($B1:$IW1),1.0)*COLUMNS($B1:
$IW1)-1.0))

This formula is invalid in Gnumeric with its default grid size but would
be valid with a larger gridsize. Suppose a program with a larger
gridsize saves this formula, it would be useful if gnumeric could easily
determine that the sheet comes from such a larger grid.

http://groups.google.com/group/How-to-Documents/browse_thread/thread/1f3ab6e086392bd4 seems to do some similar.

Moreover, the code in
http://www.excelforum.com/excel-programming/584805-run-time-error-1004-a.html
would not have shown that error in a gridsize larger than 256 columns.

Andreas

> wt
> 
> On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 15:47, Doug Mahugh <Doug.Mahugh@microsoft.com> wrote:
> > Eike's example provides a good description of such a situation:
> >
> >> There's more to it though. For named expressions (ranges or formulae) there is the strange and awkward behavior required for interoperability that for relative references the references _wrap_ around the sheet if the position of the formula cell moves towards an edge. When loaded in another grid size, the wrapped position will be different, thus the formula result may as well.
> >
> > Given these sorts of ramifications of variations in grid size, the presence of an (optional) grid-size element would be useful.  Otherwise, how would a consumer know that the spreadsheet is being loaded in "another grid size"?
> >
> > I suppose we could come up with an alternative specifically targeted at the relative-reference issue, as you've suggested for the formatting issue, but the underlying issue in both cases is that the grid size has changed.  In the long run I think it may be simpler to explicitly store grid-size information than to create a separate custom solution for each grid-size issue that arises.
> >
> > Do you feel that the addition of this optional element would cause any problems?
> >
> > - Doug
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Warren Turkal [mailto:turkal@google.com]
> > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 3:34 PM
> > To: Doug Mahugh
> > Cc: Eike Rathke; office@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: Re: [office] Data Grid Size element proposal
> >
> > Can you please describe a situation that still requires the explicit
> > grid-size elements? I'm having a hard time coming up with a use case
> > for them if there is a way to just apply a style to a whole row (or
> > column).
> >
> > wt
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2008 at 15:15, Doug Mahugh <Doug.Mahugh@microsoft.com> wrote:
> >> Warren, your suggestion looked to me like a good way to address the specific problem of row/column formatting that I had described in the proposal.
> >>
> >> An optional grid-size element may also be useful in other circumstances, including scenarios we haven't considered.  I'd like to revise the proposal to include the grid-size element as well as attributes for formatting an entire row or entire column.  Does anybody see any problem with that?
> >>
> >> Andreas and Eike, regarding formula references, I'm not sure what the best solution would be to the scenarios you have described.  The grid-size element would give consumers enough information to know whether the spreadsheet was created on an implementation with a different grid size, so that they can do whatever they feel is appropriate.  Perhaps we could look at some recommendations as Eike suggested, based on use of this element.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> Doug
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Eike Rathke [mailto:erack@sun.com]
> >> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2008 8:56 AM
> >> To: office@lists.oasis-open.org
> >> Subject: Re: [office] Data Grid Size element proposal
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> On Thursday, 2008-11-20 10:34:17 -0700, Andreas J. Guelzow wrote:
> >>
> >>> I am wondering whether something like table:grid-size doesn't also
> >>> have repercussions on evaluation of formulae. Imagine a formula that
> >>> refers to a cell location outside the current grid. What happens is
> >>> this formula suddenly finds itself in a larger grid?
> >>
> >> Might evaluate to something (maybe something wrong) then, where before it should had resulted in an error. Unless you artificially limit the sheet size as well.
> >>
> >> There's more to it though. For named expressions (ranges or formulae) there is the strange and awkward behavior required for interoperability that for relative references the references _wrap_ around the sheet if the position of the formula cell moves towards an edge. When loaded in another grid size, the wrapped position will be different, thus the formula result may as well.
> >>
> >> We should at least give some recommendations what to do in such cases, better would be clear definitions.
> >>
> >>  Eike
> >>
> >> --
> >>  OpenOffice.org / StarOffice Calc core developer and i18n transpositionizer.
> >>  SunSign   0x87F8D412 : 2F58 5236 DB02 F335 8304  7D6C 65C9 F9B5 87F8 D412
> >>  OpenOffice.org Engineering at Sun: http://blogs.sun.com/GullFOSS
> >>
> >
> >
> 
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-- 
"Liberty consists less in acting according to
one's own pleasure, than in not being subject 
to the will and pleasure of other people. It 
consists also in our not subjecting the wills 
of other people to our own."  Rousseau


Prof. Dr. Andreas J. Guelzow
Dept. of Mathematical & Computing Sciences
Concordia University College of Alberta



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