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Subject: RE: [oic] state-of-interop-cd-03 - AGREEMENT ON TC DOCUMENT FORMATAND TOOLS
Euhm, too much detail ;-) Bart ________________________________________ From: Mary McRae [mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org] Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 9:00 PM To: robert_weir@us.ibm.com Cc: Robin Cover; oic@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: Re: [oic] state-of-interop-cd-03 - AGREEMENT ON TC DOCUMENT FORMAT AND TOOLS Only in my (and Robin's) wildest dreams. m Mary P McRae Director, Standards Development Technical Committee Administrator OASIS: Advancing open standards for the information society email: mary.mcrae@oasis-open.org web: www.oasis-open.org twitter: @fiberartisan #oasisopen phone: 1.603.232.9090 Standards are like parachutes: they work best when they're open. On Feb 10, 2010, at 2:58 PM, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: > Btw, I hear rumors over the years of something like a "Spec ML" for > standards. Anything ever come of that? > > -Rob > > Robin Cover <robin@oasis-open.org> wrote on 02/10/2010 02:22:53 PM: > >> >> Subject: >> >> RE: [oic] state-of-interop-cd-03 - AGREEMENT ON TC DOCUMENT FORMAT AND > TOOLS >> >>> The version approved as CD04 was approved with the ODF version as >>> authoritative. >> >> I'm not sure whether I'm agreeing with Rob in this message, but here >> goes, FWIW: >> >> [Dennis] >>> It is startling when I >>> see .doc files, especially as authoritative sources, from other TCs. >> >> I don't understand the basis for the startlement: I would (and do) >> recommend that TCs designate the editable source as the authoritative >> format. XML, HTML, DITA-format, ODF, Word, whatever. >> >> If some TC uses Word as a word processor in document production, >> then the obvious format for "authoritative" reference (IMO) >> should be the original Word editable source -- not some >> secondary, derivative, possibly "corrupted" PDF, resulting >> from an approximate machine transform. Changes (viz., corruptions) >> introduced in (some) PDF generation transforms are widely >> attested. Not always, but too frequent for comfort. >> >> So I have noted on several fora that the OASIS provision to >> allow production of derivative works *should* imply that >> the editable source be nominated as the authoritative >> format. If not, then someone wanting to create a >> derivative work would potentially have to start work from >> a PDF -- transforming that "authoritative" PDF back into >> some useful editable format, for re-use in an editing >> framework suitable for creating derivative works. And the >> PDF-to-editable-text transform is known to be hazardous, at best, >> often leading to predictable classes of corruptions. It >> would not be safe to begin work with the original editable >> format if the PDF is authoritative, because changes in the >> PDF not detected (initially) by human inspection would >> lead to a derivative work based upon a non-authoritative >> document. >> >> Declaring the secondary generated PDF to be authoritative >> seems to me quite questionable if fidelity to the author's >> or editor's intent (in the editable source) is important. >> >> So I would recommend, if asked, that the TC use ODF as >> the authoritative format. >> >> YMMV. >> >> -rcc >> >> Robin Cover >> OASIS, Director of Information Services >> Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink >> Email: robin@oasis-open.org >> Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/who/staff.php#cover >> Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/ >> Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html >> Tel: +1 972-296-1783 >> >> -- >> >> On Wed, 10 Feb 2010, robert_weir@us.ibm.com wrote: >> >>> The version approved as CD04 was approved with the ODF version as >>> authoritative. >>> >>> Of course, we are free to make a different choice if/when we make a > post >>> public review revision. >>> >>> And remember, just because there are known bugs in the ODF rendering > does >>> not mean that there are not also bugs in the HTML or PDF exports. I've >>> certainly seen my share of those. I'll take an obvious but benign >>> rendering error over a subtle but pernicious one any day. >>> >>> -Rob >> >> >> Robin Cover >> OASIS, Director of Information Services >> Editor, Cover Pages and XML Daily Newslink >> Email: robin@oasis-open.org >> Staff bio: http://www.oasis-open.org/who/staff.php#cover >> Cover Pages: http://xml.coverpages.org/ >> Newsletter: http://xml.coverpages.org/newsletterArchive.html >> Tel: +1 972-296-1783 >> >> >>> >>> >>> "Dennis E. Hamilton" <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote on 02/10/2010 >>> 01:19:07 PM: >>>> >>>> Subject: >>>> >>>> RE: [oic] state-of-interop-cd-03 - AGREEMENT ON TC DOCUMENT FORMAT > AND >>> TOOLS >>>> >>>> This is a work-process issue. We have no agreement on what version > and >>>> specific tool we share in common in order to be able to produce and > work >>> on >>>> (authoritative) documents of the OIC TC, and ones the TC > Administrator >>> can >>>> manipulate in order to produce the OASIS Standard version (if she is > the >>> one >>>> who needs to be able to do that). >>>> >>>> It is an interoperability issue for ourselves in our own work. >>>> >>>> I notice that the proposed solution to the immediate issue involves >>>> proposing that a specific product release be used with, I suppose, a >>> prayer >>>> that the builds for different platforms don't have interop problems > too. >>>> >>>> So, when we go to Public Review, how do we deal with this? That we >>> identify >>>> the document as one supported by a specific product version? >>>> >>>> I recommend that we avoid this by making the PDF be the authoritative >>>> version. Whatever fears there are of an unfaithful PDF result, I > think >>> the >>>> odds of successful consumption by reviewers and user are clearly > better >>> than >>>> what we are dealing with as a certainty. Also, the PDFs that are >>> relatively >>>> small, easy to review, and for the State of Interoperability, we have > no >>>> concern about some normative text being corrupted in the PDF. >>>> >>>> - Dennis >>>> >>>> PS: Rob quipped that a committee can use any document format it > wants, >>> even >>>> Microsoft Word .doc. If I'd been on my toes, I would have offered to >>> second >>>> that were it to be made as a motion. (It would be ironic if the ODF >>> exports >>>> to .doc were more reliable than what we are seeing in ODF > interchange.) >>>> I am now accustomed to OASIS TCs that use ODF. It is startling > when >>> I >>>> see .doc files, especially as authoritative sources, from other TCs. > I >>> want >>>> us to have a reliable way to use ODF Text documents on the OIC TC. It >>> is an >>>> obvious dog-food issue. What can we do to achieve that successfully? >>>> >>>> PPS: Out of curiosity, I noticed that CD03 itself was identified with >>>> office:version="1.2" and >>>> <meta:generator>OOo-dev/3.2$Win32 >>>> OpenOffice.org_project/320m6$Build-9459</meta:generator>. This opens >>> just >>>> fine in OpenOffice.org 3.0.1 and (after ignoring the warning) >>> OpenOffice.org >>>> 2.4.1. >>>> >>>> PPPS: Since this is not about producing reports about specific > products >>> but >>>> figuring out a way to use an interoperable set of tools for our own >>> document >>>> production, I tried Windows 7 WordPad on cd03. It doesn't handle >>> numbers on >>>> the headings and doesn't handle ToCs. On the other hand, Word 2007 > SP2 >>>> opens all three of CD03, CD03-wd01 and CD03-wd02 and shows the ToC > and >>>> in-body headings correctly EXCEPT that, for all three documents, the >>>> level-two headings all have page breaks in front of them and, with > wd02 >>>> only, the Section numbering starts over at 1 with the Conclusions >>> section. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Hanssens Bart [mailto:Bart.Hanssens@fedict.be] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 08:30 >>>> To: dennis.hamilton@acm.org; oic@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Cc: Rob Weir >>>> Subject: RE: [oic] Groups - state-of-interop-cd-03-wd02.odt uploaded > - >>>> NUMBERING >>>> >>>> Well, we actually shouldn't comment on implementations per charter, > but >>> I >>>> guess it's related to >>>> >>>> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=106218 >>>> >>>> Should be fixed when opening in 3.2 and resaving again, I'll do that >>> when >>>> updating to cd4. >>>> >>>> >>>> Bart >>>> >>>> ________________________________________ >>>> From: Dennis E. Hamilton [dennis.hamilton@acm.org] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 4:58 PM >>>> To: oic@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Cc: Hanssens Bart; Rob Weir >>>> Subject: RE: [oic] Groups - state-of-interop-cd-03-wd02.odt uploaded > - >>>> NUMBERING >>>> >>>> OK, I didn't look closely enough. >>>> >>>> When I opened this document in OpenOffice 3.0.1, I did see the TOC > with >>>> proper subsections, and I saw section numbers on the headings in the >>> body of >>>> the document. >>>> >>>> However, numbering is not maintained properly in the body. There are >>>> several section 0.1, for example. >>>> >>>> E.g., 2.2 is numbered 0.1, 2.3 is numbered 0.1 also, section 3 is > number >>> as >>>> section 1, 3.2 is numbered 0.1, section 4 is numbered as section 1, > etc. >>>> >>>> SO, I tried the OpenOffice 2.4.1, Sun Distribution. >>>> >>>> It has the TOC right and it has the subsections being in the same >>> section. >>>> But the subsections are all numbered *.1. That is, Section 4 has two >>>> subsections each numbered 4.1. >>>> >>>> FINALLY, I opened the package in WinZip and confirmed that >>>> <office:document-content> office:version="1.1". And also, in > meta.xml, >>>> <meta:generator>OpenOffice.org/3.1$Unix >>>> OpenOffice.org_project/310m19$Build-9420</meta:generator> >>>> >>>> Yes, I would say that this is a big deal for the State of >>> Interoperability. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: bart.hanssens@fedict.be [mailto:bart.hanssens@fedict.be] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 10, 2010 07:02 >>>> To: oic@lists.oasis-open.org >>>> Subject: [oic] Groups - state-of-interop-cd-03-wd02.odt uploaded >>>> >>>> The document revision named state-of-interop-cd-03-wd02.odt has been >>>> submitted by Mr. Bart Hanssens to the OASIS Open Document Format >>>> Interoperability and Conformance (OIC) TC document repository. This >>>> document is revision #1 of state-of-interop-cd-03-wd01.odt. >>>> >>>> Document Description: >>>> >>>> >>>> View Document Details: >>>> http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/document.php?document_id=36343 >>>> >>>> Download Document: >>>> >>> > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/36343/state-of-interop-cd- > >>> >>>> 03-wd02.odt >>>> >>>> Revision: >>>> This document is revision #1 of state-of-interop-cd-03-wd01.odt. The >>>> document details page referenced above will show the complete > revision >>>> history. >>>> >>>> >>>> PLEASE NOTE: If the above links do not work for you, your email >>> application >>>> may be breaking the link into two pieces. You may be able to copy > and >>> paste >>>> the entire link address into the address field of your web browser. >>>> >>>> -OASIS Open Administration >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>>> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>>> > https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >>> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >>> >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that >> generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: >> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php >> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that > generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: > https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC that generates this mail. Follow this link to all your TCs in OASIS at: https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
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