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Subject: Re: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?


Yes - but I believe that you originally characterized the situation (a
"disconnect") as much more grave than that. I was expecting to see a
very long list, rather than 2 examples.

Joe

David RR Webber wrote:
> 
> Joe,
> 
> See the BPEL TC work - and the issues BPSS and ebMS
> is having trying to make some sort of WSDL works OK.
> 
> DW.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > >
> > > It's certainly a very different model and approach from
> > > OASIS CPA - which is heavily business-centric in
> > > many ways - and this is the disconnect.  People are
> > > trying to use WSDL to described business
> > > interactions and it was never designed for that.
> >
> > Examples of such "people"?
> >
> > Joe
> >
> > > WSDL is the way it is because of its original
> > > requirements and use case design.  Its hard to
> > > go back and retool that - and there is where this
> > > sits.  The same thing applies to XSD too.  The
> > > W3C is solving a different set of problems than
> > > people are expecting to be able to solve.
> > >
> > > DW.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <chris.hipson@bt.com>
> > > To: <david@drrw.info>; <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>;
> > > <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>;
> > > <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, March 26, 2004 4:12 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web
> Services
> > > Evolution?
> > >
> > > David Webber said
> > >
> > > "from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL."
> > >
> > > In what areas are WSDL unsustainable?  What improvements would be
> > > required to 'make it work'?
> > >
> > > Cheers Chris Hipson
> > > Web Service Technology Consultant
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: David RR Webber [mailto:david@drrw.info]
> > > Sent: 24 March 2004 20:44
> > > To: Chiusano Joseph; ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org;
> > > regrep@lists.oasis-open.org; ebSOA
> > > Subject: [ebsoa] Re: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services
> > > Evolution?
> > >
> > > Joe,
> > >
> > > You remind me of Nelson on the deck of the Victory at the
> > > Battle of the Nile - "I see no ships!"  (looking with his
> > > blind-eye through his telescope)....
> > >
> > > Web services is not even close to being finished yet - and
> > > a whole chunk of it is futilely recreating ebXML functionality,
> > > but from an unsustainable model - to wit - WSDL.
> > >
> > > Let's be clear here - Bob Sutor's decision was deterimental
> > > to everything and driven by his own self-interest - and by
> > > Microsoft and IBM thinking they could get there first.
> > >
> > > Well they did not, and they have merely succeeded in
> > > confusing the marketplace and adding much wasted time
> > > to the whole process - including mine in typing this and
> > > yours in reading it.  Customers would already be buying
> > > consistent ebSOA were it not for their confusion caused
> > > by web service FUD.
> > >
> > > I'm throughly disinterested in the web service fraternity
> > > continued efforts to re-write history and make like today
> > > they have everything working better than ebXML.
> > >
> > > First it was 'web services is simpler than ebXML - which
> > > is too complicated".  Now its - 'web services are more
> > > complete than ebXML - which is only limited and old'.
> > >
> > > Fact is - ebXML is well suited to its mission profile and
> > > therefore is coherent and consistent.  And like any
> > > great technology - ebXML is evolving, maturing and
> > > growing.  Web services are anything but - fragmented,
> > > dispersed and subject to proprietary whims - so what
> > > did web services learn from ebXML?  Frankly very little.
> > >
> > > Cheers, DW.
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chiusano Joseph" <chiusano_joseph@bah.com>
> > > To: <ebxml-dev@lists.ebxml.org>; <regrep@lists.oasis-open.org>; "ebSOA"
> > > <ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2004 12:31 PM
> > > Subject: [regrep] Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?
> > >
> > > > I'm in a bit of a "controversial" (tongue-in-cheek) mood today, so I
> > > > thought I'd through this out and see what comes back. My thoughts are
> > > > spurred by a book on that I am currently reading. Please note as you
> > > > read this that I am in a position in which I am vendor neutral.
> > > >
> > > > 3 years ago, when the first phase of ebXML was getting ready to wind
> > > > down, I was a mere observer on various listservs, so I don't have the
> > > > perspective of someone who was in the throws of things. However, I've
> > > > been thinking: Did ebXML Help Accelerate the Web Services Evolution?
> > > >
> > > > More specifically: I understand that there was a "schism" of sorts at
> > > > one point (exactly when I am not sure) in which several major vendors
> > > > pulled out of ebXML. These vendors happen to be those that are
> > > > considered to be the driving forces behind Web Services (by this I
> > > mean
> > > > the "SOAP/WSDL/UDDI"). Web Services.
> > > >
> > > > I wonder - if this "schism" did not take place (assuming that it
> > > indeed
> > > > did), would Web Services have taken off as quickly as they did? Did
> > > this
> > > > "schism" give more motivation to these vendors to evolve the "base"
> > > Web
> > > > Services standards as quickly as they were evolved? What if these
> > > > vendors had not pulled out of ebXML? What would the landscape look
> > > like
> > > > now?
> > > >
> > > > Thoughts? Comments?
> > > >
> > > > Kind Regards,
> > > > Joe Chiusano
> > > >
> > > > To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster
> > > of
> > > the OASIS TC), go to
> > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/regrep/members/leave_workgr
> > > oup.php.
> > > >
> > > >
> >


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