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Subject: [relax-ng] Fw: RELAX NG TC meeting 2002-10-24
----- Original Message ----- From: "Michael Fitzgerald" <michael@fitzgerald.name> To: <jjc@jclark.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 5:22 AM Subject: RELAX NG TC meeting 2002-10-24 > [James: Please forward these minutes to the RELAX NG list as > I cannot post directly from my Web e-mail account which is > the only access I have here (the Patagonia, Arizona public > library). Thanks a lot. -Mike] > > Minutes for a RELAX NG teleconference held 24 October 2002 at > 09:00 EDT (UTC -05:00). > > Next meeting will be 31 October 2002 at 09:00 EST (UTC - > 04:00). > > Attending > > James > John (technically now an observer %^{) > Josh > Kohsuke > Makoto > Mike > Norm > > David not present > > Agenda > > 1. RELAX NG adoption > > James: XML schema is now supported by gazillions of > applications, MS Office apps will support it in the next > release; it's a complicated story but two schema languages is > too many > Makoto: and MS offers commodity solutions > James: We have no big company backing RELAX NG > Kohuske: Perhaps we should submit RELAX NG to W3C? > Makoto: I have heard that XHTML 2.0 will offer RELAX NG > schemas. > Norm: I think it is too early to tell, many consider still > using both languages > Makoto: I know that IBM has suffered from using XML Schema a > lot and are considering using RELAX NG > Josh: I know that people what type derivation and single > inheritance, but also unordered elements > James: They are trying to force Java on XML > Josh: I think we should push RELAX NG to XML schema > translation > Makoto: We need editor support > James: The stability of our specs should influence future work > Makoto: What level of XML Schema adoption is there? > James: I don't know > John: The DTD is numerically dominant > Josh: People are using DTDs overwhelmingly > James: include weak text based > ACTION: Write up solution (?) > John: We could make regex modular > James: But it would be cleaner in core...we also have M..N > Makoto: I think it will slow down implementation if we move > too quickly to 2.0, think we should take 1-2 years > John: I think 1 year would be good; we aslo need books, > people think books make something real > Norm: I am split...we need to appear vibrant to develop > interest > John: but progress is not necessarily feature-itis > Mike: it's too early to give up the ship...we can do modular > specs for type annotations [assignment] and identity > constraints > James: we are going to do those > > 2. Attribute grammar > > James: implementers need type information, our audience is > implementers who are more accustomed to JavaCC or yacc than > attrbute grammars > Makoto: They are teaching attribute grammars in schools, > young implementers will be familiar with it, but it can be > verbose > James: yet I am not saying that compactness is a virtue > David Rosenberg has examined the grammar > Makoto: but obvious mistakes have not been pointed out yet > James: we need to read for both correctness and > understanding, what about my comment about needing to go up > and down the parse tree? there is a lack of explicit typing, > making it clearer for JavaCC or yacc > Makoto: I need to make a table for all attributes and types > James: Makoto and I will discuss this, advantages and > disadvantages, on the list > > 3. Attribute/element keywords verbose in RNC? > > John: Symmetry trumps compactness > James: readability and compactness are not the same > thing...readability is most important > Nobody wanted to change this. > > 4. Non-structure preserving translators > > James: after simplification, schemas are equivalent if both > though the exact same structure need not be retained > Kohsuke: isomorphic does not mean identical > John: tow resulting schema are the same with possible > reordering and renaming > James: annotation comments from Makoto and David Rosenberg, > issues list needs to be updated by Kohsuke > [unclear discussion of RFC 2045 MIME and annotations, do it > in grammar, construct XML document to match grammar but not > sufficient to match all constructs, annotation top-level > body, alternate pattern constraint] > > 5. Two hashes for comments? > > John: at least 2 hashes > James: end of doc parse error > John: ##+ > Norm: yes > Mike: yes > Makoto: abstain > Josh: a no-op > Kohsuke: yes > > ##+ it is. > Mike > ================== > Michael Fitzgerald > Wy'east Communications > mailto:mike@wyeast.net > http://www.wyeast.net > > >
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