Re: [sca-bindings] Issue 87: suggested response to the follow-up comment

[Simon Holdsworth <simon_holdsworth@uk.ibm.com>]

+1 to Mike's suggestions, happy with
the rest of the text

Simon Holdsworth

Mike Edwards/UK/IBM@IBMGB wrote on 25/03/2010 11:25:52:

> [image removed] 
> 
> Re: [sca-bindings] Issue 87: suggested response to the follow-up comment
> 
> Mike Edwards 
> 
> to:
> 
> OASIS Bindings
> 
> 25/03/2010 11:38
> 
> 
> Folks, 
> 
> Some comments inline as <mje>...</mje> 
> 
> In general, I am happy with the response... 
> 
> Yours,  Mike.
> 
> Strategist - Emerging Technologies, SCA & SDO.
> Co Chair OASIS SCA Assembly TC.
> IBM Hursley Park, Mail Point 146, Winchester, SO21 2JN, Great Britain.
> Phone & FAX: +44-1962-818014    Mobile: +44-7802-467431
 
> Email:  mike_edwards@uk.ibm.com 
> 

> 
> From: 
> 
> Anish Karmarkar <Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com> 
> 
> To: 
> 
> OASIS Bindings <sca-bindings@lists.oasis-open.org> 
> 
> Date: 
> 
> 24/03/2010 18:47 
> 
> Subject: 
> 
> [sca-bindings] Issue 87: suggested response to the follow-up comment
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is my suggested response. Comments are welcome.
> 
> -Anish
> --
> 
> 
> 
> On 10/7/2009 9:12 AM, Michael Champion wrote:
> > Thank you for considering Microsoft's suggestion for improving
the SCA
> > Web Services Binding spec's interoperability
> > (http://www.osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-87).
> >
> 
> The TC greatly appreciate Microsoft's comments and the ongoing dialog.
> It would be even better, from an interoperability and adoption 
> perspective, if Microsoft were to participate in the SCA bindings
TC and 
> participate/contribute to the TC's work.
> 
> > We suggested that Web Services callbacks in the SCA Web Services
Binging
> > spec should interoperate with comparable frameworks such as JAX-WS
and
> > WCF, and not be limited to various implementations of SCA. This
would
> > promote the original goals of the Web Services standards to achieve
> > wire-level interoperability among diverse run-times and platforms.
> >
> 
> There is perhaps a misunderstanding about the SCA Web Services Callback
> Protocol. There is *nothing* in the protocol that impedes wire-level
> interoperability with frameworks such as JAX-WS and WCF. The protocol
> (and the associated WSDL extension, WS-Policy assertion) uses the
well 
> know and well adopted WS-* architecture of composible specifications.
It 
> uses SOAP/WSDL/WS-Policy extensibility/architecture to implement the
> callback functionality. Any WS-* stack that allows one to handle 
> extensibility/composable specification should be able to handle the
> protocol. 
> 
> <mje>We can perhaps make a point that the testcase suite is
designed to use 
> JAXWS components to check the conformance of an SCA runtime to the
binding.ws
> specification 
> </mje>
> 
> Perhaps you mean "out-of-the-box" interoperability from
JAX-WS/WCF. If 
> so, then that is the decision the implementors/creators of JAX-WS/WCF
> have to make. It is not within the scope of this TC. Since Microsoft
> owns WCF, it would be up to Microsoft to provide such an 
> "out-of-the-box" interoperability, and this TC would urge
Microsoft to 
> do so.
> 
> **********
> [This part would be included only if we decide to resolve issue 124
> along the direction that has been discussed recently. If not, this
para 
> will be removed.]
> 
> To that end, the TC has created separate conformance targets/sections
> that allows for entities that want to conform to the protocol, but
not 
> necessarily implement an SCA runtime. See resolution of issue 124
[.1]
> 
> [.1] http://osoa.org/jira/browse/BINDINGS-124
> 
> **********
> 
> > The SCA Binding TC responded by saying that the SCA Web Services
binding
> > protocol "defines an *SCA* Web service callback protocol
standard” and
> > that it "is not meant to satisfy general purpose callback
requirements
> > with a broadest scope possible". In other works, the TC
believes that
> > the SCA Web Services callbacks will NOT be interoperable with
non-SCA
> > implementations
> >
> 
> That is incorrect. Not defining a protocol that satisfies *every*
> possible callback definition and interoperability are orthogonal.
> 
> As mentioned above, SCA Web Services Callback Protocol is interoperable
> with non-SCA runtimes as long as they implement the protocol as specified.
> 
> What we meant to say was that: 
> <mje> 
> I would prefer to use the phrase: "To clarify what we said previously..."
> - this does not carry the implication that we did not say want we
> meant before... 
> </mje>
> The TC is not interested in boiling the ocean to satisfy every callback
> scenario and every possible callback definition. Microsoft's comment
was 
> interpreted by the TC as suggesting that all the callback-related
> discussion need to be re-discussed in a separate TC and that we need
to 
> start from scratch. We believe that the SCA callback definition 
> satisfies the needs of SCA. Furthermore the SCA callback definition
is 
> general enough to satisfy other needs as well. Doing so is well within
> the scope of this TC and we believe it is interoperable on the wire.
> 
> This is very similar to what the WS-RX TC [.1] did when it created
a 
> polling specification [.2]. Polling is necessary to implement reliable
> messaging when one of the interacting entities is behind a firewall.
> They created a specification that is useful for WS-ReliableMessaging
as 
> well as other WS-* implementation that have a need for polling and
> choose to use WS-MakeConnection for that purpose.
> 
> [.1] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ws-rx
> [.2] http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/wsmc/200702/wsmc-1.1-spec-os.html
> 
> > The TC's response goes on to say that "This TC does believe
that it
> > should define an interoperable Web services protocol that implements
SCA
> > callback and it has done that. It does not believe that it is
in the
> > scope or interest of this TC to define a callback protocol for
all
> > architectures and programming models."
> 
> What was meant here (and should have been said) was: 
> <mje> 
> Again: "To clarify our previous response:" 
> </mje>
> We believe that we have defined an interoperable callback protocol.
It 
> works for SCA and we believe it works for other architectures and
> programming models (SCA is designed ground-up for a multiple programming
> model environments).
> 
> If Microsoft believes that the SCA callback definition does not fit
> their architecture/programming model, then we respectfully request
(and 
> per our understanding certain members of the TC have in the past)
> Microsoft to participate in the TC. No one, including Microsoft, has
> brought forward any *specific* architectural or interoperability issues
> with the callback protocol definition.
> 
> > We respectfully find this
> > statement contradictory, unless the TC defines the term
> > "interoperability" in its narrowest form: SCA implementations
will only
> > be interoperable amongst themselves, and not with other frameworks
and
> > runtimes. We would find this unfortunate, as OASIS is committed
to broad
> > interoperability, especially when it comes to use of Web Service
wire
> > protocols. It would be better to standardize a Web Services callback
in
> > a separate spec, with the participation of all vendors who build
> > platforms and products that support Web Services wire protocols.
> >
> 
> Again, we would welcome Microsoft's participating in this TC.
> 
> **********
> [note this paragraph depends on the resolution of issue 124]
> 
> We would also note that the spec now contains conformance requirements
> for non-SCA runtimes that would like to implement the protocol and
> interoperable on the wire.
> **********
> 
> > It is clear from [1] that the TC is aware that interoperability
with
> > non-SCA runtimes is an issue. The TC discussed the idea of moving
the
> > callback portion of the protocol into its own document in order
to
> > address "the use case of non-SCA clients does walk into
the more general
> > territory alluded to by MS." We highly recommend that the
Binding and
> > Assembly TCs work together to design a Web Services Binding spec
that is
> > interoperable with non-SCA technologies. Without interoperability,
> > software developers and users will find it difficult to use SCA
in the
> > heterogeneous, multi-vendor environments that all our customers
live in.
> >
> 
> **********
> [note this paragraph depends on the resolution of issue 124]
> 
> Indeed, and the spec has been changed to allow non-SCA runtimes to
> conform to the protocol and interoperate on the wire. 
> <mje> 
> The specification has been extended to provide specific conformance
statements
> that provide a definition of what any runtime, including non-SCA 
> runtimes, would need 
> to do to conform to the protocol and to interoperate on the wire 
> </mje>
> **********
> 
> > [1]
> > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.php/34064/SCA%
> 20Bindings%20minutes%202009-09-03.doc
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Michael Champion
> >
> > *From:* Simon Holdsworth [mailto:simon_holdsworth@uk.ibm.com]
> > *Sent:* Thursday, September 17, 2009 7:04 AM
> > *To:* sca-bindings-comment@lists.oasis-open.org
> > *Subject:* [sca-bindings-comment] Response to: "Microsoft
technical
> > comment: Develop interoperable approach notspecific to SCA for
callbacks"
> >
> >
> > This is a formal response of the OASIS SCA Bindings technical
committee
> > to the "Microsoft technical comment: Develop interoperable
approach not
> > specific to SCA for callbacks" which was sent to the SCA
Bindings public
> > comments list.
> >
> > This is the agreed response of the technical committee as a whole
and
> > was approved unanimously at the meeting of the TC which took
place on
> > September 3rd 2009.
> >
> > ------------------------
> >
> > Thanks for taking the time to review the specification, sending
your
> > public review comment [1], and for sharing you thoughts. They
are much
> > appreciated.
> >
> > The public review comment at [1] suggests that: "... the
work of
> > defining a Web Service callback standard is best done by the
appropriate
> > Web Services working groups in OASIS in the broadest scope possible.
> > This will foster a general interoperable mechanism for all architectures
> > and programming models that use standard Web Services protocols
on the
> > wire."
> >
> > There is a misunderstanding on the commenter's part that the
SCA Web
> > Services Binding defines a (generally applicable) "Web Service
callback
> > standard." The binding defines an *SCA* Web service callback
protocol
> > standard that provides the wire-level details for implementing
an SCA
> > callback defined by the SCA Assembly specification [2]. [2] defines
a
> > callback mechanism that satisfies the needs of the SCA Assembly
model
> > and is not meant to satisfy general purpose callback requirements
with a
> > broadest scope possible. Furthermore, there does not exist any
other
> > OASIS Web Services Working Group or a Technical Committee that
> > specializes in Web Services that has callbacks in its charter
scope.
> > This TC *does* specialize in Web services and is chartered to
produce a
> > Web services binding for SCA.
> >
> > This TC does believe that it should define an interoperable Web
services
> > protocol that implements SCA callback and it has done that. It
does not
> > believe that it is in the scope or interest of this TC to define
a
> > callback protocol for all architectures and programming models.
> >
> > WRT your comment about SCA Assembly specification Section 7.4,
we
> > respectfully request you to share that feedback with the SCA
Assembly TC
> > [3], as the SCA Assembly specification is not owned by and is
not in
> > scope for this TC.
> >
> > [1]
> > http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/sca-bindings-comment/200908/
> msg00000.html
> >
> > [2]
> > http://docs.oasis-open.org/opencsa/sca-assembly/sca-assembly-1.1-
> spec-cd03.pdf
> >
> > [3] http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=sca-assembly
> >
> > --------------------------
> >
> > Follow-up comments are welcome.
> >
> > Regards, Simon
> >
> > Simon Holdsworth
> > STSM, SCA Bindings Architect; Master Inventor; OASIS SCA Bindings
TC Chair
> > MP 211, IBM UK Labs, Hursley Park, Winchester SO21 2JN, UK
> > Tel +44-1962-815059 (Internal 245059) Fax +44-1962-816898
> > Internet - Simon_Holdsworth@uk.ibm.com <mailto:Simon_Holdsworth@uk.ibm.com>
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
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