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Subject: Re: [soa-rm] [issue:structure] draft 07, sect 2, line 201, Figure 2-1


Semantics are ubiquitous.  No matter if they are explicit or implicit, 
they are present. 

Meta data has semantics.
Metadata is a set of data declaring details pertaining to another set of 
data.
I am not convinced that semantics are realized as metadata.  In fact, in 
a reference model, nothing is realized - it is all abstract.

Duane


Gregory A. Kohring wrote:

>Yes "realized as" is not the right phrase here. Would you
>support "documented in"?
>
>-- Greg
>
>
>Peter F Brown wrote:
>  
>
>>I like this diagram more. I think it's closer to my understanding at least
>>of wherewe want to go.
>>
>>My only question is: are the semantics *only* realised as metadata? Or more
>>precisely: in a Reference Model, are the semantics of the service realised
>>at all? Surely the metadata "realisation" is part of a reference
>>architecture not a reference model?
>>
>>-Peter
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Gregory A. Kohring [mailto:kohring@ccrl-nece.de] 
>>Sent: 19 May 2005 09:24
>>To: Francis McCabe
>>Cc: SOA-RM; dnickull@adobe.com; mattm@adobe.com
>>Subject: Re: [soa-rm] [issue:structure] draft 07, sect 2, line 201, Figure
>>2-1
>>
>>Frank,
>>
>>If I understand you correctly, then in your view there is little to be
>>gained by distinguishing between syntaxt and semantics at this level.
>>Hence, the "Service Description" is purely semantics.
>>
>>Attached is another diagram which depicts this idea. Is this consistent with
>>your ideas?
>>
>>-- Greg
>>
>>Francis McCabe wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>While I like the direction in which this is going, I have a couple of
>>>issues:
>>>
>>>1. I do not see semantics as being inside service description. 
>>>Semantics is an abstract concept that may be referred to but is not 
>>>contained in any description.
>>>2. I am not sure why data model is broken out in the way suggested.  
>>>To me, tehe data model is an asepct of the semantics of the service.
>>>3. I do not see a hard and fast distinction between syntax and 
>>>semantics. Again, any syntactic constraints are simply part of the 
>>>overall semantics.
>>>
>>>The *reason* for this is that while it is tempting to equate  
>>>semantics with application semantics, that is not, in fact, a good  
>>>slope to slip down.
>>>
>>>Once you liberate yourself from that misconception, one beings to see 
>>>all kinds of possibilities. For example, for an encryption/decryption 
>>>service, its entire semantic model consists of messages with  
>>>encryption markers etc. etc. Is that syntax? Depends on your point of  
>>>view; to my mind it is semantics of a simple service.
>>>
>>>
>>>Frank
>>>
>>>
>>>On May 13, 2005, at 12:01 AM, Gregory A. Kohring wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>Yes, this looks much better. Attached is a slight variation which 
>>>>moves the semantics into the description. At one time, "syntax" was 
>>>>also explicitly mentioned as being part of the description. Has that 
>>>>been dropped?
>>>>
>>>>-- Greg
>>>>
>>>>Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>Does something like this make more sense than a stack diagram.   This is
>>>>>uses a multi-layered approach to group things and reduce the  number 
>>>>>of lines.
>>>>>
>>>>>Duane
>>>>>
>>>>>Duane Nickull wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>The issue we had with the concept map is we ended up with a 
>>>>>>proliferation of arrows for items like "semantics" and security  since
>>>>>>they are omni-present.   We tried various other depictions and  finally
>>>>>>came to the stack.  I agree that the stack alone is not  sufficient 
>>>>>>and also lends itself to ambiguity so we agreed to place some text by
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>it.
>>
>>    
>>
>>>>>>There are standard conventions for interpreting stack diagrams.  
>>>>>>For example - layers in the stack are only able to talk to adjacent 
>>>>>>layers.  Layer n can interact with n-1 and n+1, but not n+2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The position of the vertical layers indicate they are relevant to  
>>>>>>each horizontal layer they are adjacent to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>In stack diagrams, there is no named associations present so it is 
>>>>>>ambiguous.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Accordingly, one can infer the following from the diagram in 2.1
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Service descriptions (are associated with) services Policies (are 
>>>>>>associated with) service descriptions Contracts (are associated 
>>>>>>with) policies data models (are associated with) contracts 
>>>>>>semantics (are associated with) service descriptions, policies, 
>>>>>>contracts and data models.
>>>>>>Services, Service descriptions, policies, contracts and data models 
>>>>>>may all be discoverable and their presence and availability known.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>What I do not like is that it also separates the data model from 
>>>>>>the service description and separates the contract from the service 
>>>>>>description.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It may be better to go with a layered concept map.
>>>>>>Duane
>>>>>>
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>
>  
>


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