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Subject: RE: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge?
> We are working these three items into the next generation of > the OASIS Technical Architecture. I believe you meant to say "ebXML Technical Architecture"? Joe Joseph Chiusano Associate Booz Allen Hamilton 700 13th St. NW Washington, DC 20005 O: 202-508-6514 C: 202-251-0731 Visit us online@ http://www.boozallen.com > -----Original Message----- > From: John Hardin [mailto:john@maphin.net] > Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2005 10:29 AM > To: peter@justbrown.net > Cc: 'Goran Zugic'; 'Hungenahally, Suresh'; 'David Webber > (XML)'; 'Duane Nickull'; 'Jones, Steve'; > McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; > soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; 'ebSOA OASIS TC'; > semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; 'James Bryce Clark'; > soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com > Subject: Re: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: > [ebsoa] The real SOA challenge? > > That's what I believe the FERA-based SOA can do for us: Give > us a stable model that defines each of the Information > Models, the Semantics and the Run-Time SOA model. > > We are working these three items into the next generation of > the OASIS Technical Architecture. > > You can view these three separate papers, generously donated > by Goran, Vasco and George W. Brown (from Intel) at: > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph > p/15263/SOA_CS_V0.1.doc > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph > p/14407/SOA_IM_V0.1.doc > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ebsoa/download.ph > p/14406/Run-time_SOA_V0.1.doc > > > > Peter F Brown wrote: > > Sounds good in theory, but who is going to agree the > semantics to make > > all that automatable? Who/what is going to build/enable the > "federated > > trust network"? the market? governments? standards > organisations? To > > use Goran's > > #7 and #8, do we need a methodology (=policies, business practices, > > industry-level agreements) to make it happen? and still > remain agile > > (avoiding the pitfalls of EDI)? > > > > Coming from the government sector, we are asking ourselves: > do we have > > a role in leading the way by mandating certain standards and > > terminology (take for example the whole area of "e-enabling" public > > procurement contracts, accounting for up to 20% of GDP in some > > countries) for use in developing SOA-based services? Our > interest, for > > example, in a reference model, is precisely the ability to support > > very diverse commercial and open source offers while keeping an > > underlying coherent model in which they are all able to > work together. > > > > OASIS has talked about developing a "common core" of themes and > > messages that underpin the work of the different > SOA-related TCs, and > > it would seem that this thread has boot-strapped that > process...where > > can it go from here, rather than getting lost in posting across at > > least 5 lists, possibly more to come.... > > > > Peter > > > > ------------- > > Peter F Brown > > --- > > Chair, CEN eGovernment Focus Group > > --- > > Senior Expert > > eGovernment - Legal, Organisational and International > Issues Austrian > > Federal Chancellery > > --- > > Co-Editor, OASIS SOA Reference Model > > --- > > Office: > > E: peter.brown@bka.gv.at > > T: +43 1 53115 2595 > > W: www.bka.gv.at > > Personal: > > E: http://public.xdi.com/=Peter.Brown > > W: www.XMLbyStealth.net > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: John Hardin [mailto:john@maphin.net] > > Sent: 16 November 2005 20:08 > > To: Goran Zugic > > Cc: Hungenahally, Suresh; David Webber (XML); Duane Nickull; Jones, > > Steve; McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; > > soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; 'ebSOA OASIS TC'; > > semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; James Bryce Clark; > > soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com > > Subject: [soa-rm] Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: > [ebsoa] The > > real SOA challenge? > > > > It's all very simple from my standpoint: > > > > Federated Trust Network > > Federated Registry / Repository > > Customized Executable Business Process which operate on those > > federated networks..... > > > > Goran Zugic wrote: > > > >>David, I do not want to argue about the history. SOA (Web Services, > >>ebXML, and many other SOA related concepts, standards, > etc.) has not > >>suddenly emerged from nowhere. > >> > >>Suresh, if I understand correctly your point, you think that the > >>business process modeling, grouping and taxonomy of processes are > >>important SOA enablers. I completely agree with you. It is very > >>important but not the only aspect of the entire SOA > picture. What I am > >>also interested in is the SOA enterprise architecture and real > >>alignment between the business and technology. No marketing > hype but > >>real > > > > stuff. > > > >>These are my questions. Not only for you but for everybody on this > >>thread. I am just using these questions to continue with discussion. > >>Do not worry I will provide my answers later and I hope > that you will > >>keep adding new questions as well. The more questions and the more > >>discussions trying to form answers the better. I am sure we > will not > >>change the world but at least we can start to communicate > more often > >>and exchange ideas. > >> > >>1. How do we integrate business processes we model as services and > >>technology? Here I mean a real automatic integration > without army of > >>developers working on the "SOA Enterprise Architecture" to > implement > >>processes just modeled or to implement changes just > introduced. To me > >>that kind of architecture is not SOA. That is old school which we > >>shortly talked about in our history introduction. > >> > >>2. How do we make SOA agile? Again automatic implementation > of changes > >>without coding and both static and dynamic. > >> > >>3. How do we model and support business process semantics? Not just > >>message exchanges and message routing. > >> > >>4. How do we use standards and support standard convergence? > >> > >>5. What is our SOA Reference Model? > >> > >>6. What is our complete SOA reference architecture? > >> > >>7. Do we have an SOA methodology and what the SOA methodology is all > > > > about? > > > >> > >>8. What are our SOA best practices? > >> > >>9. What are the most critical SOA missing points and > failures so far > >>and how to fix them or not repeat them? > >> > >>10. What is the overall OASIS plan with regards to SOA, SOA TCs > >>related work and their relationship? > >> > >>11. How can we start to work together and use each others > "products"? > >> > >>12. How can we (TCs and OASIS) convince more leading vendors to be > >>involved in the SOA specs development and start using SOA > specs we are > >>working on? > >> > >> > >>I think that we should keep the entire original content of the > >>messages for the completeness of the thread. > >> > >>Goran > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> *From:* Hungenahally, Suresh > > > > <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com> > > > >> *To:* David Webber (XML) <mailto:david@drrw.info> ; > >> goran.zugic@semantion.com > <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com> ; Duane > >> Nickull <mailto:dnickull@adobe.com> ; John Hardin > >> <mailto:john@maphin.net> ; Jones, Steve > >> <mailto:steve.g.jones@capgemini.com> > >> *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca > >> <mailto:McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca> ; > fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org > >> <mailto:fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org> ; soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org > >> <mailto:soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org> ; > ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org > >> <mailto:ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org> ; > >> semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org > >> <mailto:semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org> ; > >> jamie.clark@oasis-open.org <mailto:jamie.clark@oasis-open.org> ; > >> soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org > >> <mailto:soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org> ; > >> vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com > >> <mailto:vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com> > >> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:06 PM > >> *Subject:* RE: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: > [ebsoa] The real > >> SOA challenge? > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >> I am new to the group. Please bear with me if I do not > understand > >> how this works. > >> > >> Agree 100% with David Webber, the key is in this point > that David > >> makes "So much for history - no need to dwell there - > the challenge > >> now is to bring *real business enabled XML-driven > processes and SOA > >> to fruition."* > >> ** > >> Which means we need to clearly address: > >> > >> 1. SOA and processes integration by broad domains > (Finance, Telco, > >> Transport, Defence, Government etc.) We could use > models such as the > >> eTOM as a starting point. > >> 2. Establish a standard grouping of processes within > the business > >> domains > >> 3. Then look at which of these can be enabled using XML. > >> 4. In Australia the DOMEDI group did similar work in > the Transport > >> domain (thouogh for a different purpose) > >> 5. Finally a taxonomy of the business, processes, > enablers and XML > >> transactions > >> > >> Regards. Suresh > >> > >> ________________________________________________ > >> > >> Dr. Suresh Hungenahally| *Capgemini* | Melbourne > >> Senior Manager > >> 477 Collin St. Melbourne 3000 Australia > >> T. + 61 3 9613 3343 | M. + 61 402 408 816| F. + 61 3 > 9613 3333. > >> E. _suresh.hungenahally_@capgemini.com > >> <mailto:suresh.hungenahally@capgemini.com> | > www.capgemini.com > >> <http://www.capgemini.com> > >> > >> *Join the Collaborative Business Experience* > >> ________________________________________________________ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > -- > > > >> *From:* David Webber (XML) [mailto:david@drrw.info] > >> *Sent:* Wednesday, 16 November 2005 2:55 PM > >> *To:* goran.zugic@semantion.com > <mailto:goran.zugic@semantion.com>; > >> Duane Nickull; John Hardin; Jones, Steve > >> *Cc:* McGregor.Wesley@tbs-sct.gc.ca; fwsi@lists.oasis-open.org; > >> soa-rm@lists.oasis-open.org; ebsoa@lists.oasis-open.org; > >> semantic-ex@lists.oasis-open.org; jamie.clark@oasis-open.org; > >> soa-blueprints@lists.oasis-open.org; > >> vasco.drecun@cpd-associates.com; goran.zugic@semantion.com > >> *Subject:* Re: [ebsoa] RE: [fwsi] RE: [soa-rm] RE: > [ebsoa] The real > >> SOA challenge? > >> > >> Goran, > >> > >> While I like what you say vis SOA here - I have to take > you to task > >> on history ; -) > >> > >> The ebXML foundation came out of the work of the XML/edi Group > >> aligned with the work of CEFACT on ooEDI. > >> > >> It completely breaks the mold on EDI. Yes - things > like ebMS are > >> founded on EDI+ communications - but the core of the > ebXMl stack - > >> registry-centric XML-driven collaboration - and the > notion of the > >> "Fusion of Five" is designed to sweep away the old EDI > practices. > >> Unfortunately XML as implemented today is nothing more than a > >> slightly better EDI. The whole XML revolution is yet > to truely take > >> hold. > >> > >> As for web services - this was a shameless grab by IBM > and Microsoft > >> - attempting to be first to market ahead of ebXML with > concepts that > >> in essence are nothing more than "real-time EDI" - with > all the same > >> strengths and weaknesses of the > >> original real-time EDI implementations - just using XML and the > >> internet instead of EDI and private networks. > >> > >> So much for history - no need to dwell there - the > challenge now is > >> to bring real business enabled XML-driven processes and SOA to > > > > fruition. > > > >> > >> Cheers, DW > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> For example, Web Services are initiated with an idea of > >> services introduced by Microsoft 6-7 years ago and > this idea has > >> been formed from distributed computing and component-based > >> computing ideas and "learn on mistakes" lessons from many > >> organizations in 80s and 90s; ebXML is mostly based > on EDI ideas > >> and "learn on mistakes" lessons, etc. > >> > >> This message contains information that may be privileged or > >> confidential and is the property of the Capgemini Group. It is > >> intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. > If you are not > >> the intended recipient, you are not authorized to read, print, > >> retain, copy, disseminate, distribute, or use this > message or any > >> part thereof. If you receive this message in error, > please notify > >> the sender immediately and delete all copies of this message. > >> > > > > > > -- > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > | john c hardin > > | Chief Technology Officer > > | http://www.maphin.net > > | 606.598.7353 office > > | 606.813.4316 cell > > | mailto:john@maphin.net > > | > > | Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee > > | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa > > | > > | > > | "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the > > | image of a global village." > > | > > | Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > > > |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > | john c hardin > | Chief Technology Officer > | http://www.maphin.net > | 606.598.7353 office > | 606.813.4316 cell > | mailto:john@maphin.net > | > | Chair - OASIS ebSOA Technical Committee > | http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=ebsoa > | > | > | "The new electronic interdependence recreates the world in the > | image of a global village." > | > | Marshall McLuhan, "Gutenberg Galaxy", 1962 > |~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >
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