Re: [xtm-wg] Re: Fixing language.xtm and country.xtm

[Murray Altheim <altheim@eng.sun.com>]

[this message has almost nothing to do with the thread's subject, for
those with less time on their hands.]

Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
> * Murray Altheim wrote:
> |
> | > And what I have been saying repeatedly is that I want to prepare a
> | > proposal that will have 'suggested' status in time for the meeting in
> | > Montreal. That way it can be approved there and adopted immediately.
> |
> | This is your fallacy. There can be no "immediate" adoption. The TC will
> | create an agenda item to discuss *as part of an approved work item* any
> | projects that have been submitted. [...]
>
> This just doesn't seem to work. 

You're correct. It doesn't work. You and I haven't met, so perhaps this
is a difficulty due to email's lack of ability to convey emotion, etc.
but since the beginning of this little foray I have felt bullied by 
you. You started this thread by saying that if I couldn't deliver 
according to your expectations, that somebody else "should be given 
this job."  Your tone in that message described decisions I'd made
in the language.xtm and country.xtm topic maps as wrong without
regard or understanding as to why I made them. You didn't bother
to engage in any discussion before declaring them wrong. These topic 
maps have some bugs, but they're not so wrong as you make out. For 
example, your understanding of xml:base is incorrect [1]. Some of
your comments reflect a misunderstanding of the difference between
a language and a language code (which is a profound difference).

You seem so willing to rush ahead without any regard for anyone else 
that I already have little desire to work with you. Is that the way
to start? Your manner and repeated insistence suggests that your desires
and *your* sense of the community's agenda are more important than the 
feelings of those around you. You seem either oblivious to this, or you
simply don't care. Do you have *any* diplomacy? Do I have to expect that
this is your modus operandi and the way I'm always going to have to 
interact with you? 

I came out of my last experience working on the XTM specification ready 
to leave this community for elsewhere because I felt the way I and others
had been treated was cavalier, unfair, rude, and unnecessary. If I am 
headed for another round of this, I'll certainly measure my involvement 
accordingly, and expect others will feel the same way too. As Steve
Newcomb once said to me, my "moral sensibilities" have had a lot of
influence on the outcome of the XTM effort. He also said I was at times 
"annoying as hell" (though I consider him a good friend and this
shouldn't be misconstrued).

Well, we all are annoying as hell and you should get used to dealing
with us. Diplomacy at the start might be a good idea. If you want
to be a team player, play like a team player. If you want to build
things by yourself, go off and build them by yourself. This is a group
of people, not a process. I keep harping about process, but I'm really
harping about community. You're not building community very well, and
you don't even seem all that interested. 

And before I go, let me clear one more fallacy. There is *absolutely
no danger* that the incorrectness of the country.xtm and language.xtm
topic maps will cause a problem for topic maps being currently 
authored. The importance of these two topic maps is not their direct
functionality as XTM documents, but the establishment of a set of
Published Subject Indicators. The PSIs for "English" and "Kurdish" will 
stay the same in an update. These topic maps could have had empty <topic>
elements with the same set of IDs and be functional for what people 
need for authoring. There is no rush to update the internals of these,
except the rush you perceive. The updates for three character codes 
will be available following a decision by the TC, and if someone has
a need for a language not currently available, a workaround until the
update would be simple to accomplish. And we're not that far from 
Montreal.

You can spend a lot of energy trying to force people to conform to your 
desires, but you accomplish a lot more with honey, as they say. I've 
already spent too much time talking about talking about. In several short
days you've managed to turn me away from any desire to spend more time on
this, or dealing with you. This might suggest more than simply "Murray
is impossible to deal with."

Murray

[1]  Go look at the xml:base specification again before telling everyone
 things are wrong. The example following Section 3 is quite clear:
 http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlbase/#syntax
...........................................................................
Murray Altheim                            <mailto:altheim&#x40;eng.sun.com>
XML Technology Center
Sun Microsystems, Inc., MS MPK17-102, 1601 Willow Rd., Menlo Park, CA 94025

      In the evening
      The rice leaves in the garden
      Rustle in the autumn wind
      That blows through my reed hut.  -- Minamoto no Tsunenobu

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