RE: [ubl-dev] B2B and IT standards... interesting paper and Gartner's view

["Roger Bass" <roger@traxian.com>]

David,
 
to clarify one thing first - my company is focused on XML-based B2B connectivity, not UBL specifically - and frankly, it's mostly cXML and a few other vertical formats that we're doing so far.  Very interested in UBL, and expect to support it as soon as there are interesting UBL-based connections that we can enable, but that's not yet the case.  Denmark is the first such large-scale deployment I'm aware of - although the SME applications picture there remains unclear to me.
 
Also: "clear jetstream", well no, definitely not there yet either.  I've described the experience of solving these problems to people as being like walking to the top of a hill.  You think you see where the top of the hill is... then you get there, and actually it's a bit further off still.
 
All I'm saying is that there is starting be a big-enough group of large companies who are connected via XML-enabled B2B networks.  And also, less easy to connect with, but still good, some more cases where individual companies are XML-connectable (still in slightly quirk ways, usually).  In certain cases, that's because their application vendors are supporting this, at least for some products and versions, which is good because it means there's more similarity across the user base of that app.
 
None of this is to say we've "reached the top of the hill" - but I think it's an important step in creating the "B2B Internet", a single interoperable network of businesses, which will make continued investments in interoperability (and hence to a large extent, standardization) worthwhile for everyone.
 
Best,
Roger

________________________________

From: David Lyon [mailto:david.lyon@preisshare.net]
Sent: Sun 2/4/2007 11:26 PM
To: ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ubl-dev] B2B and IT standards... interesting paper and Gartner's view



Hi Roger,

After two weeks of asking I can't get anybody to give me a simple
example of a UBL catalogue file. They either don't have any or don't
want to give me any.  Maybe it's just not developed.. .. I really don't
know...

So if you are doing mass interconnections or about to on a vast scale
with UBL, then it obviously that means that you've overcome these issues
and are in the clear jetstream...

Well, quite frankly, that's very good to hear...

Meanwhile, I will very patiently await my example file to come.... I'm
interested to see how long it will take....

Best Regards

David


Roger Bass wrote:
> David,
> 
> The points in my email were pretty high level strategic ones. I'm not
> quite clear which points if any you're disagreeing with there.
> 
> I do agree that this is all quite some way from the more immediate
> concerns faced by SMBs, and the companies trying to solve these
> problems for them - which include my company as well as yours.  The
> behavior you describe of large companies with their "supplier portals"
> is very familiar to us too. Indeed, I see that behavior as driving
> demand from SMBs for solutions like my company's. And I expect and
> hope to see much more of it!
> 
> You say these big companies don't provide any automated upload
> capabilities. Well, in specific cases that may or may not be true.
> It's certainly not what's promoted, and the individual large companies
> may not even know about it, but my sense is that in an increasing
> number of cases, there are in fact ways to connect programmatically
> using XML standards. I'm working through these issues now with some of
> the very big names in the industry so that we can actually deliver a
> solution that is able to make those connections at vast scale.
> 
> Best,
> Roger
> 
> PS: btw, I didn't get what you meant about business reporting
> mechanisms not mentioning this etc
> 
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* David Lyon [mailto:david.lyon@preisshare.net]
> *Sent:* Sun 2/4/2007 3:35 PM
> *To:* Roger Bass
> *Cc:* ubl-dev@lists.oasis-open.org
> *Subject:* Re: [ubl-dev] B2B and IT standards... interesting paper and
> Gartner's view
>
>
> Hi Roger,
>
> They're interesting points.
>
> I'd just like to add an alternate perspective that I see at some of my
> clients. They're not the same clients as Gartner would have. They're
> much smaller of course.
>
> A lot of these clients are in reality going backwards in productivity
> with regards to IT and B2B standards.
>
> The reason for this is quite simple.
>
> Large companies now have complex websites and are more commonly refusing
> to do data entry. Instead making their smaller Customers do double entry
> instead. First into their own accounting system and then into the
> suppliers website/online system.
>
> This of course goes against the grain of what many of us promote,
> exchanging business messaging. But it's quite true.
>
> I can name many large international companies who work this way. They
> don't provide any web-services with automatic upload capabilities. Just
> browser based entry screens.
>
> So whilst Gartner may say it is one way that relates to their own
> clients, there is a whole 'nother business world out there where the
> reality is entirely different.
>
> And the numbers of businesses that operate in this 'alternate' system is
> the majority by number... but none of the actual business reporting
> mechanisms will mention this because of various commercial loyalties and
> concerns that are in place with the big players.
>
> Regards
>
> Davod
>
>
> Roger Bass wrote:
> > In view of the discussion about ebXML and WS-*, I wanted to share a
> couple of things that seem potentially relevant.
> >
> > This paper http://www.w3.org/2007/01/wos-papers/gall
> <http://www.w3.org/2007/01/wos-papers/gall>  (from a Gartner VP no
> less), talks about how the whole WS-* stack is actually antithetical
> to web architecture principles, and calls for a new focus at the W3C
> on a set of A2A protocols (and by implication, B2B as a subset) that
> are more weblike, leaving the big IT middleware vendors to evolve WS-*
> on their own.  He also makes some interesting points about how
> web-like resource architectures are inherently more viral, ie may
> proliferate faster (though he doesn't quite say it like that).
> >
> > Separately, but quite related I think, Gartner's B2B research leads
> are articulating a vision that explicitly states that B2B
> infrastructure will become the infrastructure for IT outsourcing.  And
> with services in the cloud proliferating and increasingly valuable,
> the architecture for IT outsourcing will increasingly become the
> architecture for IT, period.
> >
> > So, an interesting hypothesis emerges - whatever standards and
> technologies win in B2B eventually win everywhere.
> >
> > The Danish paper implicitly argues the other way around - WS-* is
> winning within the enterprise, so it will win in B2B. The points here
> suggest that that may not necessarily be so.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
>