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Subject: RE: [ubl] Using CCs correctly (was Re: [ubl] Review of Two Diffs (Michael/Sue's and Stephen's))


Hi Tim
 
TBG17 is a collection of people exactly trying to 'do something about this' and their number include several past and/or present UBL library SC members who care passionately about working together, under the only truly international business users forum that we have, to try and solve this problem in a single, published unambiguous way. This will not be trivial and it will not be easy.
 
I humbly suggest that, in order to maximise all our world wide efforts to achieve the holy grail of improved semantic interoperability, we work together with TBG17 to agree, prove, implement and pass on to the CCTS development team the clarifications which are essential to ensure that we can build and use a common Core Component Library.
 
This TBG17 work is progressing well with a number of useful clarifications already available togethre with a draft library which is certainly proving its worth with several user communities with which I am either working or familiar.
 
How about UBL giving wider international standardisation a try, Tim? TBG17 cannot succeed while submitters simply finish their work, 'throw their candidate CCs over the wall' and then do not participate in the spirit and the work of the follow-up harmonisation. IMHO we should now be taking the TBG17 clariifications and their draft library into very serious consideration for UBL. BTW I do not believe that UBL will be able to achieve its potential impact if it continues to plough a separate CCTS furrow.
 
regards
 
Sue
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim McGrath [mailto:tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au]
Sent: 01 July 2004 03:56
To: MCRAWFORD@lmi.org
Cc: ubl@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [ubl] Using CCs correctly (was Re: [ubl] Review of Two Diffs (Michael/Sue's and Stephen's))

so what can we do about it? where are the CCs we should be basing this on?  we stated up front that all unqualified BIEs in UBL would be candidate core components and have submitted them to TBG17 on that basis.  

I accept that despite numerous reviews and discussions we did not always agree on the use of qualifiers or terms, but as we have no consistent examples or definitions in the CCTS we are feeling our way as to how these should be used.  pehaps you can help us?


MCRAWFORD@lmi.org wrote:
Tim,
 
* what do you mean by 'the library of CCs'?  - i am not aware there are any.  
 
Exactly, thats the fundamental problem.  Without defining and basing all of your BIEs on CCs you are 1) non conformant with CCTS and 2) unable to have the underlying structures that are key to any harmonization and approval process.
 
* what do you mean by 'consistency in the use of qualifiers vs. multi-worded object classes and property terms'?  - i thought we had introduced property term possessive nouns and nouns to try and deal with this more formally than the CCTS itself.
First, the property term possessive nouns and nouns are 1) not CCTS 2) confusing to the model, and 3) were not implemented uniformly.  Second, there appear to be zero qualifiers used for the object classes - rather a host of unqualified object classes have been defined for the reusables. 
 
Mark
Mark R. Crawford
Senior Research Fellow - LMI XML Lead
W3C Advisory Committee, OASIS, RosettaNet Representative
Vice Chair - OASIS UBL TC & Chair Naming and Design Rules Subcommittee
Chair - UN/CEFACT XML Syntax Working Group
Editor - UN/CEFACT Core Components

 
LMI Government Consulting
2000 Corporate Ridge
McLean, VA 22102-7805
703.917.7177 Phone
703.655.4810 Wireless
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-----Original Message-----
From: Tim McGrath [mailto:tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 6:47 AM
To: CRAWFORD, Mark
Cc: ubl@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ubl] Review of Two Diffs (Michael/Sue's and Stephen's)

your comment is clear in that you obviously see a disconnect but i am not sure how to deal with this without tangible examples...

for example:




MCRAWFORD@lmi.org wrote:
Tim,
 
the comments appear pretty clear to me.  You did not base the library on CCs - hence the BIEs are a hodgepodge of objects with no real relationships that are fully harmonizable.  The library has no consistency in the use of qualifiers vs multi worded object classes and property terms hence the relationships are unclear at best. 
 
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim McGrath [mailto:tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au]
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2004 8:57 PM
To: CRAWFORD, Mark
Cc: ubl@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ubl] Review of Two Diffs (Michael/Sue's and Stephen's)

You have made this statement before but I have not seen examples of what you mean by this.  Perhaps you could explain where we have gone wrong and what we should be doing using UBL1.1 BIEs?  It is hard to correct something if we don't know what we are aiming for.

MCRAWFORD@lmi.org wrote:

One of the fundamental problems with the library is the Lack of consistently applied object qualifiers. This makes any harmonization extremely difficult if not impossible, and leads to a questionable conformance to ccts. The use of property terms and qualifiers is equally problematic in the way we have done it. Until and unless we begin to base our Bies on CCs we will have a disconnected inconsistant library that manifests itself in the form of inconsistent schema.
Mark Crawford
Research Fellow - LMI XML Lead
W3C Advisory Committee, OASIS, RosettaNet Representative
Vice Chair - OASIS UBL TC & Chair Naming and Design Rules Subcommittee
Chair - UN/CEFACT XML Syntax Working Group
Editor - UN/CEFACT Core Components
______
Logistics Management Institute
2000 Corporate Ridge, McLean, VA 22102-7805
(703) 917-7177   Fax (703) 917-7481
Wireless (703) 655-4810
mcrawford@lmi.org
http://www.lmi.org
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-- 
regards
tim mcgrath
phone: +618 93352228  
postal: po box 1289   fremantle    western australia 6160



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