Re: [ubl] Minutes of Atlantic UBL TC call 24 October 2007

[Tim McGrath <tmcgrath@portcomm.com.au>]

i fully understand Eduardo's concerns and do try to not use this term - 
but everyone else we deal with uses it as Jon indicated.  Where forced 
(with UN/CEFACT) i try to ensure that it is understood we are not giving 
them anything.

thanks for raising this (again) as it is important we keep these 
distinctions clear.

Eduardo Gutentag wrote:
> Jon,
>
> we have no disagreement as to the meaning of the word submission; in
> this context, it obviously means "to make available for use", as in
> your quote below from the b: definition in Webster.
>
> However, the fact that a word has certain inescapable connotations
> and/or consequences cannot be denied just because a dictionary entry
> does not, properly, include them in the definition.
>
> Looking at Webster's definition of "accident", for instance [1], does
> not bring up the word insurance, nor does it bring up the possibility
> of loss of limb or life as a consequence of an accident. This does
> not mean however (at least to me, and I bet to you too) that it would
> be prudent to drive a car with no insurance in a careless manner just
> because the dictionary does not mention some of the possible
> consequences of a car accident.
>
> Similarly, just because the definition of the word "submission" does
> not include a reference to possible IP transfer of ownership does not
> mean such transfer is not a possible consequence of such submission.
>
> If you look at how a PAS Submission at ISO or a Member Submission at
> W3C are formally structured, you will see that they definitely have
> IP connotations as to the subsequent IP ownership of the submission
> once it's accepted (which, by the way, suggests to me that the
> difference between a submission and a contribution is that a
> contribution is what a submission becomes once it is accepted; but
> one could also argue that there is not a whole lot of a difference,
> since at least one definition of "contribute" is "to *submit*
> articles for publication" [2]).
>
> So I think it's quite incorrect to say that "OASIS is alone in
> attaching the concept of IP ownership to the word submission". It's
> simply not so.
>
> What a TC produces is IP; to make it available for use by others
> inherently transfers that IP to the others unless it's done in the
> proper manner; and the proper manner in OASIS is either for OASIS
> Staff to formally submit it to a third party (as in the case of an
> ISO PAS submission) with all the i's dotted and the t's crossed as
> regards the submission's IP, or for the TC to publish it in the OASIS
> site with the prescribed copyright notice, from where a third party
> can pluck it at will but under the obligations spelled out by the
> OASIS copyright notice. What is not acceptable is for a TC vice-chair
> to submit OASIS material to a third party for their indiscriminate
> use.  The last time this happened the third party simply used it with
> no acknowledgment of the TC's or OASIS's part in its creation, and
> with no carrying forward of OASIS's copyright. And that is just
> wrong.
>
> [1] I'm traveling, so I have no access to a printed copy of a dictionary;
> thus I'm constrained to quote from Webster's online definition:
>
> 1 a: an unforeseen and unplanned event or circumstance b: lack of
> intention or necessity : chance <met by accident rather than by
> design>
>
> 2 a: an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or
> ignorance b: an unexpected and medically important bodily event
> especially when injurious <a cerebrovascular accident> c: an
> unexpected happening causing loss or injury which is not due to any
> fault or misconduct on the part of the person injured but for which
> legal relief may be sought d: used euphemistically to refer to an
> involuntary act or instance of urination or defecation
>
> 3: a nonessential property or quality of an entity or circumstance
> <the accident of nationality>
>
> [2] Webster's online, again.
>
>
> On 10/26/07 07:55, Jon.Bosak@Sun.COM wrote:
> >> Why is there talk about submissions?
> >
> > Because that's what they're called.  A submission is something
> > submitted; in this context, to submit is "a: to send or commit for
> > consideration, study, or decision: REFER" (example: "submit a
> > question to the court"), or "b: to present or make available for
> > use or study" (example: "submit a report") -- Webster's Third New
> > International Dictionary, Unabridged.
> >
> > I am aware that some in OASIS consider "submission" a synonym for
> > "contribution."  That's now how it's being used in the groups that
> > the UBL TC deals with, and the association with a transfer of
> > intellectual property is not supported by any of the dictionaries
> > of English that I own, which, as you know, is quite a few.
> >
> > As far as I can tell, OASIS is alone in attaching the concept of
> > intellectual property ownership to the word "submission."  As we
> > have no other mutually understood English word to describe what
> > we're doing in "presenting or making available" the results of our
> > work "for use or study" by TBG17, my advice to OASIS is to get
> > over it.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
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> >
>

-- 
regards
tim mcgrath
phone: +618 93352228  
postal: po box 1289   fremantle    western australia 6160
web: http://www.portcomm.com.au/tmcgrath