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Subject: Re: [ubl] Incoterms (was: Re: [ubl] Minutes of Pacific UBL TC call 5|6 May 2008)
Nice to hear this !
> [roberto@javest.com:]
>
> | is the following UN/ECE recommendation allowing us to include the
> | Incoterms 2000 code list into UBL 2.1 ?
> |
> | UNE/CE Rec 05
> | http://www.unece.org/cefact/recommendations/rec05/rec05_ecetrd259.pdf
>
> Based on two hours of research, I now think that Roberto is right
> in saying that we can include the Incoterms code list. We just
> need to be clear on what we mean by that.
>
Of course we need to avoid including into the genericode list the full
descriptions provided "at payment" by ICC (International Chambre of
Commerce). We just need a code and a description, possibly a localization
of the description...as it is available in most countries.
> I see four things at issue here: the Incoterms themselves; the
> three-letter abbreviations of the Incoterms; the composite you get
> when an Incoterm abbreviation is followed by the name of a place,
> port, or destination and then the tag "Incoterms 2000"; and the
> Preambles that define in detail the legal implications of each
> Incoterm.
The composite is the way we should use it on a real use case, as the
Incoterm need to be completed by the location.
However the Incoterm code is self explanatory describing the distribution
of costs and responsabilities between buyer/seller.
We do not need an enumeration of all combinations between Incoterms and
Locode. UN/Locode * Incoterm is a crazy number and not useful at all.
>
> Example Incoterm:
>
> FREE ON BOARD
>
> Example abbreviation:
>
> FOB
>
> Example composite:
>
> FOB Liverpool Incoterms 2000
I think noone get offended if we use Incoterm and Locode into different
UBL BIEs.
The composite example (and maybe constraint) is just for the printed form
not the electronic document.
>
> Example Preamble:
>
> "Free on Board" means that the seller delivers when the goods
> pass the ship's rail at the named port of shipment. This means
> that the buyer has to bear all costs and risks of loss of or
> damage to the goods from that point. The FOB term requires the
> seller to clear the goods for export. [etc.]
>
> The Incoterms site confuses these different things when it says,
> for example, that "Incoterms need revising periodically." What it
> means is that the Preambles need revising periodically. As far as
> I can tell, the thirteen Incoterms and their three-letter
> abbreviations have not changed for over half a century -- probably
> longer.
The revision can be just on the meaning of a given Incoterm (g.e field of
application) and this "could" change descriptions and/or the full
Incoterms 2000 documentation available at payment.
But you are right the code has never changed.
>
> The answer to the question, "Can we include an Incoterms code list
> in UBL?" depends on what we mean by "code list" and whether we
> mean legal ability or mechanical ability.
I sent a genericode draft to Ken with 3 columns: code, description and
group (this is just the 1st char of the code)
>
> If by "Incoterms code list" we mean a genericode version of the
> following:
>
> CFR / COST AND FREIGHT / COUT ET FRET
> CIF / COST, INSURANCE AND FREIGHT / COUT, ASSURANCE ET FRET
> CIP / CARRIAGE AND INSURANCE PAID TO / PORT PAYE, ASSURANCE COMPRISE,
> JUSQU'A
> CPT / CARRIAGE PAID TO / PORT PAYE JUSQU'A
> DAF / DELIVERED AT FRONTIER / RENDU FRONTIERE
> DDP / DELIVERED DUTY PAID / RENDU DROITS ACQUITTES
> DDU / DELIVERED DUTY UNPAID / RENDU DROITS NON ACQUITTES
> DEQ / DELIVERED EX QUAY / RENDU A QUAI
> DES / DELIVERED EX SHIP / RENDU EX SHIP
> EXW / EX WORKS / A L'USINE
> FAS / FREE ALONG SHIP / FRANCO LE LONG DU NAVIRE
> FCA / FREE CARRIER / FRANCO TRANSPORTEUR
> FOB / FREE ON BOARD / FRANCO BORD
>
> then I believe the answer is yes, we can include it in UBL,
> because this list is taken (by me) from the table printed in UNECE
> Recommendation No. 5, "ABBREVIATIONS OF INCOTERMS: Alphabetic Code
> for Incoterms 2000" (ECE/TRADE/259, Geneva, May 2000). I note in
> passing that the table in ECE/TRADE/259 is identical to that given
> in ECE/TRADE/202 (Geneva, January 1996); the latter also provides
> the following handy alternative text:
>
> EXW - EX WORKS
> FCA - FREE CARRIER
> FAS - FREE ALONGSIDE SHIP
> FOB - FREE ON BOARD
> CFR - COST AND FREIGHT
> CIF - COST, INSURANCE AND FREIGHT
> CPT - CARRIAGE PAID TO (named place)
> CIP - CARRIAGE AND INSURANCE PAID TO (named place)
> DAF - DELIVERED AT FRONTIER
> DES - DELIVERED EX SHIP
> DEQ - DELIVERED EX QUAI
> DDU - DELIVERED DUTY UNPAID
> DDP - DELIVERED DUTY PAID
>
> If, on the other hand, we mean by "Incoterms code list" a
> genericode version of all possible composites (abbreviations x
> places + "Incoterms 2000"), then I think the answer is yes, we
> legally can, but do we really want to? It seems to me that the
> resulting code list would be about 13 times as large as the
> portcode list, which already takes up about 47 MB of disk space.
of course noone need it
>
> If we've modeled this in a way that requires the code element to
> contain an entire composite, then it looks like we've got a
> problem, but if so, it's a mechanical one, not a legal one. From
> Roberto's note, however, it seems that we've divided this
> information between cac:DeliveryTerms/cbc:ID (specific examples:
> CIF, FOB, EXW) and cac:DeliveryTerms/cac:DeliveryLocation/cbc:ID,
> so unless I'm missing something, we're fine with this.
yes this is corre t for an electronic document (see upper explanation for
printed format)
> We just
> need to add a gc version of the thirteen-item list above to the
> set of code lists in 2.1.
>
> I don't have time today to look into Roberto's second question
> regarding commodity codes, but I'll post something when I get the
> chance.
>
> Jon
Thanks Jon !
This will make UBL even better !
>
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--
* UBL Italian Localization SubCommittee (ITLSC), co-Chair
* UBL Online Community editorial board member (ubl.xml.org)
* Italian UBL Advisor
* OASIS NEWS italian translator
Roberto Cisternino
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