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Subject: Re: [virtio-dev] [PATCH RFC 3/3] rng: leak detection support
On Thu, Sep 28, 2023 at 08:16:11PM +0200, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > On 27/9/23 23:47, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 27, 2023 at 12:43:20PM +0200, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > On 22/9/23 18:01, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 05:40:50PM +0200, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > > > On 22/9/23 17:06, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 12:11:37PM +0200, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > > > > > On 19/9/23 12:01, Michael S. Tsirkin wrote: > > > > > > > > On Tue, Sep 19, 2023 at 09:32:08AM +0200, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > > > > > > > Resending to fix e-mail formatting issues (sorry for the spam) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 18/9/23 18:30, Babis Chalios wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes, that's what the driver does now in the RFC patch. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > However, this just > > > > > > > > > > > > > > decreases > > > > > > > > > > > > > > the race window, it doesn't eliminate it. If a third > > > > > > > > > > > > > > leak event happens it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > might not > > > > > > > > > > > > > > find any buffers to use: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. available buffers to queue 1-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2. available buffers to queue X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3. poll queue X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4. used buffers in queue X <- leak event 1 will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > use buffers in X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5. avail buffers in queue X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6. poll queue 1-X <- leak event 2 will > > > > > > > > > > > > > > use buffers in 1-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7. used buffers in queue 1-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8. avail buffers in queue 1-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <- leak event 3 (it > > > > > > > > > > > > > > needs buffers in X, race with step 5) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9. goto 3 > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't get it. we added buffers in step 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > What if the leak event 3 arrives before step 5 had time to > > > > > > > > > > > > actually add the > > > > > > > > > > > > buffers in X and make > > > > > > > > > > > > them visible to the device? > > > > > > > > > > > Then it will see a single event in 1-X instead of two events. A leak is > > > > > > > > > > > a leak though, I don't see does it matter how many triggered. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So the scenario I have in mind is the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Epoch here is terminology that I used in the Linux RFC. It is a value > > > > > > > > > maintained by random.c > > > > > > > > > that changes every time a leak event happens). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. add buffers to 1-X > > > > > > > > > 2. add buffers to X > > > > > > > > > 3. poll queue X > > > > > > > > > 4. vcpu 0: get getrandom() entropy and cache epoch value > > > > > > > > > 5. Device: First snapshot, uses buffers in X > > > > > > > > > 6. vcpu 1: sees used buffers > > > > > > > > > 7. Device: Second snapshot, uses buffers in 1-X > > > > > > > > > 8. vcpu 0: getrandom() observes new epoch value & caches it > > > > > > > > > 9. Device: Third snapshot, no buffers in either queue, (vcpu 1 from step 6 > > > > > > > > > has not yet finished adding new buffers). > > > > > > > > > 10. vcpu 1 adds new buffer in X > > > > > > > > > 11. vcpu 0: getrandom() will not see new epoch and gets stale entropy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In this succession of events, when the third snapshot will happen, the > > > > > > > > > device won't find > > > > > > > > > any buffers in either queue, so it won't increase the RNG epoch value. So, > > > > > > > > > any entropy > > > > > > > > > gathered after step 8 will be the same across all snapshots. Am I missing > > > > > > > > > something? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > > > Babis > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but notice how this is followed by: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 12. vcpu 1: sees used buffers in 1-X > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Driver can notify getrandom I guess? > > > > > > > It could, but then we have the exact race condition that VMGENID had, > > > > > > > userspace has already consumed stale entropy and there's nothing we > > > > > > > can do about that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although this is indeed a corner case, it feels like it beats the purpose > > > > > > > of having the hardware update directly userspace (via copy on leak). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How do you feel about the proposal a couple of emails back? It looks to > > > > > > > me that it avoids completely the race condition. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > > Babis > > > > > > It does. The problem of course is that this means that e.g. > > > > > > taking a snapshot of a guest that is stuck won't work well. > > > > > That is true, but does it matter? The intention of the proposal > > > > > is that if it is not safe to take snapshots (i.e. no buffers in the > > > > > queue) don't take snapshots. > > > > > > > > > > > I have been thinking of adding MAP/UNMAP descriptors for > > > > > > a while now. Thus it will be possible to modify > > > > > > userspace memory without consuming buffers. > > > > > > Would something like this solve the problem? > > > > > I am not familiar with MAP/UNMAP descriptors. Is there > > > > > a link where I can read about them? > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Babis > > > > Heh no I just came up with the name. Will write up in a couple > > > > of days, but the idea is that driver does get_user_pages, > > > > adds buffer to queue, and device will remember the address > > > > and change that memory on a snapshot. If there are buffers > > > > in the queue it will also use these to tell driver, > > > > but if there are no buffers then it won't. > > > That sounds like a nice mechanism. However in our case the page > > > holding the counter that gets increased by the hardware is a kernel > > > page. > > > > > > The reason for that is that things other than us (virtio-rng) might > > > want to notify for leak events. For example, I think that Jason > > > intended to use this mechanism to periodically notify user-space > > > PRNGs that they need to reseed. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Babis > > > > Now I'm lost. > > when you write, e.g.: > > 4. vcpu 0: get getrandom() entropy and cache epoch value > > how does vcpu access the epoch? > > The kernel provides a user space API to map a pointer to the epoch > value. User space then caches its value and checks it every time it > needs to make sure that no entropy leak has happened before using > cached kernel entropy. > > virtio-rng driver adds a copy on leak command to the queue for > increasing this value (that's what we are speaking about in this thread). > But other systems might want to report "leaks", such as random.c > itself. > > Cheers, > Babis This idea would be fine but I don't see how it's so different from VMGENID. Care to explain?
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