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Subject: RE: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
Peter,
=20
Yes, of course much can be accomplished using current specifications.
As you alluded to yourself, many would say that you can accomplish
everything in Web services using XML and HTTP. And of course there are
many possible alternate solutions to context management. This is
precisely why we are trying to standardize something, so that everyone
isn't creating their own alternate solutions.
=20
To build a bit on the analogy, everyone can certainly send XML over HTTP
and build whatever decoders they want to build for extracting
information from the document and invoking a service or putting the
information on a queue. And no doubt many people are doing this.
However, the standards community has a strong believe that a
specification for how exactly this should be done, or would best be done
(or perhaps even just adequately done) is preferable to everyone
creating their own solutions. So we have the SOAP specification telling
us what kind of XML document to send, what elements to include to assist
in the processing of that XML document, for reporting faults in a
standard way and so on.
=20
Of course anyone is free to debate the usefulness of standards and
conventions for achieving common goals, and I appreciate your views on
the topic.
Regards,
=20
Eric
-----Original Message-----
From: Furniss, Peter [mailto:Peter.Furniss@choreology.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 10:26 AM
To: Mark Little; malik saheb; ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
Mark,
=20
I've had a look and I still don't see a clear added-value of WS-Context
itself, or statement of what is deficient in using headers directly.
There are assertions, as in your first paragraph that WS-Context could
be used for various things, but I don't see what features it adds that
aren't there already or which have to be specified in some other
document known to the various parties.
=20
=20
The problem is that the additional specification (it is not necessarily
an ALS, it may just be specification - the GAF proposal is an example of
the sort of thing) has to define the interpretation and purpose of the
attributes and elements in the context. You could write virtually the
same specification text saying "this value is put in a SOAP header with
top-element qname" instead of "this value is put in a context with type
uri".
=20
That would certainly seem to be the case for pass-by-bulk.
Pass-by-reference, once it's sorted out, comes down to the
general-purpose semantics of "here is a soap header with an element that
is a URI that can be dereferenced to give you more information."
Everything else is left to the addtional specification.
=20
Undoubtedly the various specs that have context-like behaviour *could*
function with WS-Context, but I don't see what they would gain other
than "namespace paint" .
=20
=20
Peter
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Little [mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com]=20
Sent: 12 February 2004 14:16
To: Furniss, Peter; malik saheb; ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
Peter, I think you missed the point. I realise you weren't at the first
face-to-face, (and I've no idea if you'll be at the next one where I'm
sure the demo app will be described), but this kind of discussion came
up in Boston. It was also one of the original FAQ questions (can't say
for sure if it's on the current TC FAQ though). One of the intentions of
WS-Context is to try to provide a standard way of approaching context,
rather than the ad hoc mechanisms that currently exist. For example, it
would be great if WS-Security adopted WS-Context, for example; though
whether that actually happens is a different issue entirely. WS-RF as
another example may be able to utilise WS-Context.
=20
An aim would be to provide a standard that allows existing and new uses
of context to be more easily created and to work collectively. I find it
strange to be going back over what the aims of this TC is, since we're
4+ (?) months into it, but: we'll define a standard context
representation that all users will agree upon and can augment if
required; the location of context will also be precisely defined such
that it is no longer a hit-and-miss thing to be able to identify
pertinent "context" information in a header or body. I don't think this
is a waste of time and effort, and just looking outside of this TC
neither do the various companies that we have talked to.
=20
And with regard to my comments on the demo. application: as I said, I
can see how context could be used in the way currently described, I just
think that an alternative approach may well be easier to describe and
understand.
=20
Oh, and WS-Context can be used entirely by itself, i.e., without any
ALS-es. It was designed to. Check out
http://www.arjuna.com/library/reports/2003-08-12-GAF-v1_0.pdf for
example.
=20
All the best,
=20
Mark.
=20
P.S. If we're going to discuss the demo. specifically then let's take it
to the separate working group.
=20
----
Mark Little,
Chief Architect, Transactions,
Arjuna Technologies Ltd.
=20
www.arjuna.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: Furniss, Peter <mailto:Peter.Furniss@choreology.com> =20
To: Mark Little <mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com> ; malik
<mailto:malik.saheb@arjuna.com> saheb ; ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org=20
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: RE: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
WS-CAFites,
=20
The proposed demo application, and Mark's comments on it are very
interesting as showing two different approaches by the author companies
(who are to be congratulated on having such discussions in the open,
rather than huddling away in a corner :-). But they raise a query I've
had in my mind about WS-Context.
=20
By design WS-Context can't be used completely alone - there has to be
some additional specification known to the various parties - so in the
demo application, the client and the retailers all know of the shopping
cart application. Exactly what behaviour is required of them differs
slightly between the demo as written and Mark's suggestions - but the
client has at least to know that it has to put the context on the
messages to the retailers, and the retailers to know they must make
their supplying part of the cart.
=20
The problem I have is that I can't quite work out what WS-Context adds
that isn't already available in SOAP headers. The WS-Context-using
shopping cart specification will be identified by a URI (the "type" in
the context -this is probably the same as, or related to, the
ALS-context identifier). A service receiving a context with that uri (or
finding it after dereferencing a pass-by-reference context) will thus
know what it has to do, as specified by the shopping cart spec: but
that's all part of the shopping cart spec, and not WS-Context
(especially if, as Mark suggests the shopping cart ALS offers its own
service, with addToCart, removeFromCart).
=20
Compare that with exactly the same shopping cart service specified using
SOAP header, and able to generate a unique shopping cart identifier. The
shopping cart specification defines a soap header, using the namespace
uri to identify it's headers among all the other that exist. The header
includes the URI of the shopping cart service and any other identifiers
- in fact exactly the same information that it would need to specify as
being contained in the context had it used WS-Context. A service
receiving a shopping cart header does exactly the same things as one
receiving a shopping cart context.
=20
The demo app as described does have the Context Service doing more, but
that seems to be what can be done with http anyway - the context
identification URI labels a resource that can be fetched (get) or
changed (put) (but no equivalent of post at ctx level).
=20
The shopping-cart service is using the Context-service to generate the
unique identifier, but that isn't difficult to do itself (and might well
be counter-productive to take one in from the Ctx service, since if the
shopping cart chose its own URI's it could put locally-meaningful (but
externally opaque) information in them, whereas if the URI is given to
it by a Context Service the cart service must indirect through a hash or
whatever.)
=20
To summarise:
=20
What gain does a WS-Context-using specification gain from WS-Context
that it could not have got from the combination of:
=20
- SOAP Headers, which identify, by the namespace URI which
specification they refer to and can contain elements and attributes of
use to that specification
=20
- HTTP Get, Put and Post which can fetch, set and modify a
remotely-held body of information unambiguously identified by a URI
=20
Good grief, I've turned into a RESTafarian ! =20
=20
=20
This isn't to say there might not be something in the higher levels of
WS-CAF (I have thoughts on that too :-), but I have a suspicion that by
the time you've generalised the context-layer sufficiently to make it
general (i.e. to justify ws-context as a separate spec), there isn't
anything left worth specifying. Yes, several things need to pass around
identifications, and associated information and there are some protocol
design issues that are worthy of summarising (e.g. rules about
unambiguity must be precise, implications of id exchange) but there
isn't anything worth making into a distinct protocol.
=20
Peter
=20
------------------------------------------
Peter Furniss
Chief Scientist, Choreology Ltd
web: http://www.choreology.com <http://www.choreology.com/>=20
email: peter.furniss@choreology.com
phone: +44 870 739 0066
mobile: +44 7951 536168
=20
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Little [mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com]=20
Sent: 11 February 2004 11:53
To: malik saheb; ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: Re: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
I've attached comments to the document. As far as I can see, this still
needs work. The architecture of the application seems to be a very
strange use of context in general, and WS-Context specifically. Maybe
this is a carry-over from the WS-I demo?
=20
Mark.
=20
----
Mark Little,
Chief Architect, Transactions,
Arjuna Technologies Ltd.
=20
www.arjuna.com
----- Original Message -----=20
From: malik saheb <mailto:malik.saheb@arjuna.com> =20
To: ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org=20
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 7:00 PM
Subject: [ws-caf] Agenda for the demo application
Hi All
=20
I have attached the document explaining how the demo application can use
the WS-Context.=20
The way the demo will use the other specifications will be provided
later according to the schedule described below and that follow the
following steps.
=20
- Before a meeting we will produce a document describing the demo
application using a particular specification (deadline 1 week before the
meeting)
- During a meeting the document made previously available will be
discussed=20
- Show a demo application with a particular specification (no demo for
the Paris meeting)=20
=20
In other words:
2nd meeting - Paris
- Before the meeting - we provide the demo application with the WS-CTX.
- During the meeting - Discuss the demo application with WS-CTX=20
=20
3rd meeting New Orleans=20
- Before the meeting - produce a document of the demo application with
WS-CF
- Discuss of the application with WS-CF=20
- Show the Demo Application with the WS-Context (described in the
previous meeting)
=20
4th F2F meeting (date to be determined) -=20
- Before the meeting - produce a document of the demo application with
WS-TXM
- Discuss of the application with WS-TXM
- Show the Demo Application with the WS-CF (described in the previous
meeting)
=20
5th F2F meeting (date to be determined) -=20
- Show the Demo Application with the WS-TXM (described in the previous
meeting)
=20
Malik=20
=20
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<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Eric,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>It's=20
not the concept of standardising that I have issue with - I've been =
heavily=20
involved in open protocol standards for nearly 20 years - it's just =
whether=20
WS-Context has enough substance to be worth factoring out as a layer to =
be built=20
on by multiple users.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>All=20
protocol standards define, by some means, a syntax and some related =
semantics. But with WS-Context, although it is clear enough what =
the syntax=20
is, I remain unconvinced that there is any significant semantics =
carried by=20
the WS-Context syntax, that is not equally carried by its=20
immediate carrier, the SOAP header.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>I am=20
perhaps running ahead here and assuming the progression of ws-context=20
will clean up the text and take out some things that are already =
there,=20
because closer study will show they are not generic and ought to be part =
of the=20
additional specification that is invariable needed to define =
the syntax and=20
semantics of the content of the context. From the first meeting, I've =
been=20
trying get clarity (in my own mind, and seeking it for the text) on =
what=20
the generic semantics are - hence the request for the example =
scenarios you</FONT> <FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>and others put=20
forward. But they show the problem quite well - although they =
certainly=20
CAN use WS-Context, they don't seem to be gaining anything from it that =
isn't=20
already there in SOAP headers, and perhaps the=20
dereferencing.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>A=20
thought experiment: imagine writing down the specification for one of =
the use=20
scenarios, to the level of detail needed for independent interoperable=20
implementation, in the absence of WS-Context, but with the rest of the =
web=20
service suite available. Now re-run that thought experiment, with =
WS-Context=20
available. For which features and mechanisms that are needed for the =
scenario do=20
you find the second case easier, because you can say "i don't need to =
specify=20
how to do that, because I get it automatically because it's part of the=20
WS-Context function, and the behavioural requirements on the =
implementations are=20
implicit in the use of WS-Context", whereas in the absence of =
WS-Context, the=20
particular specification had to include that. If the same features =
and=20
mechanisms are made easier for different (potentially) WS-Context-using=20
specifications then those are what should be in WS-Context. =
What are=20
those features ? If all the features turn out to be either delivered by =
SOAP=20
Headers or particular to a using-specification, we can collapse =
WS-Context and=20
more straight on to WS-CF :-)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Peter</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D004163523-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
Newcomer, Eric [mailto:Eric.Newcomer@iona.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 12 =
February 2004=20
19:46<BR><B>To:</B> Furniss, Peter; Mark Little; malik saheb;=20
ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [ws-caf] Agenda for =
the demo=20
application<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Peter,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Yes,=20
of course much can be accomplished using current specifications. =
As you=20
alluded to yourself, many would say that you can accomplish everything =
in Web=20
services using XML and HTTP. And of course there are many =
possible=20
alternate solutions to context management. This is precisely why =
we are=20
trying to standardize something, so that everyone isn't creating their =
own=20
alternate solutions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>To=20
build a bit on the analogy, everyone can certainly send XML over HTTP =
and=20
build whatever decoders they want to build for extracting information =
from the=20
document and invoking a service or putting the information on a =
queue. =20
And no doubt many people are doing this. However, the standards=20
community has a strong believe that a specification for how exactly =
this=20
should be done, or would best be done (or perhaps even just adequately =
done)=20
is preferable to everyone creating their own solutions. So we =
have the=20
SOAP specification telling us what kind of XML document to send, what =
elements=20
to include to assist in the processing of that XML document, for =
reporting=20
faults in a standard way and so on.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Of=20
course anyone is free to debate the usefulness of standards and =
conventions=20
for achieving common goals, and I appreciate your views on the=20
topic.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004>
<DIV><BR><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Regards,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV></SPAN><SPAN class=3D000163819-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Eric</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr style=3D"MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Furniss, Peter=20
[mailto:Peter.Furniss@choreology.com]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, =
February 12,=20
2004 10:26 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Mark Little; malik saheb;=20
ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: [ws-caf] Agenda =
for the=20
demo application<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Mark,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>I've had a look and I still don't see a clear added-value =
of=20
WS-Context itself, or statement of what is deficient in using =
headers=20
directly. There are assertions, as in your first paragraph that =
WS-Context=20
could be used for various things, but I don't see what features it =
adds that=20
aren't there already or which have to be specified in some other =
document=20
known to the various parties.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>The problem is that the additional specification (it is not =
necessarily an ALS, it may just be specification - the GAF proposal =
is an=20
example of the sort of thing) has to define the interpretation and =
purpose=20
of the attributes and elements in the context. You could write =
virtually the=20
same specification text saying "this value is put in a SOAP header =
with=20
top-element qname" instead of "this value is put in a context with =
type=20
uri".</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>That would certainly seem to be the case for pass-by-bulk.=20
Pass-by-reference, once it's sorted out, comes down to the =
general-purpose=20
semantics of "here is a soap header with an element that is a URI =
that can=20
be dereferenced to give you more information." Everything else is =
left to=20
the addtional specification.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Undoubtedly the various specs that have context-like =
behaviour=20
*could* function with WS-Context, but I don't see what they would =
gain other=20
than "namespace paint" .</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004></SPAN><SPAN=20
class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2>Peter</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D642294514-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3D#0000ff=20
size=3D2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff =
2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> =
Mark Little=20
[mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 12 February 2004=20
14:16<BR><B>To:</B> Furniss, Peter; malik saheb;=20
ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ws-caf] Agenda =
for the=20
demo application<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter, I think you missed the =
point. I=20
realise you weren't at the first face-to-face, (and I've no idea =
if you'll=20
be at the next one where I'm sure the demo app will be described), =
but=20
this kind of discussion came up in Boston. It was also one of the =
original=20
FAQ questions (can't say for sure if it's on the current TC FAQ =
though).=20
One of the intentions of WS-Context is to try to provide a =
standard way of=20
approaching context, rather than the ad hoc mechanisms that =
currently=20
exist. For example, it would be great if WS-Security adopted =
WS-Context,=20
for example; though whether that actually happens is a different =
issue=20
entirely. WS-RF as another example may be able to utilise=20
WS-Context.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>An aim would be to provide a =
standard that=20
allows existing and new uses of context to be more easily created =
and to=20
work collectively. I find it strange to be going back over what =
the aims=20
of this TC is, since we're 4+ (?) months into it, but: we'll =
define a=20
standard context representation that all users will agree upon and =
can=20
augment if required; the location of context will also be =
precisely=20
defined such that it is no longer a hit-and-miss thing to be able =
to=20
identify pertinent "context" information in a header or body. I =
don't=20
think this is a waste of time and effort, and just looking outside =
of this=20
TC neither do the various companies that we have talked =
to.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>And with regard to my comments on =
the demo.=20
application: as I said, I can see how context could be used in the =
way=20
currently described, I just think that an alternative approach may =
well be=20
easier to describe and understand.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Oh, and WS-Context can be used =
entirely by=20
itself, i.e., without any ALS-es. It was designed to. Check out <A =
=
href=3D"http://www.arjuna.com/library/reports/2003-08-12-GAF-v1_0.pdf";>ht=
tp://www.arjuna.com/library/reports/2003-08-12-GAF-v1_0.pdf</A> for =
example.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>All the best,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>P.S. If we're going to discuss =
the demo.=20
specifically then let's take it to the separate working=20
group.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----<BR>Mark Little,<BR>Chief =
Architect,=20
Transactions,<BR>Arjuna Technologies Ltd.<BR> <BR><A=20
href=3D"http://www.arjuna.com";>www.arjuna.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; =
BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3DPeter.Furniss@choreology.com=20
href=3D"mailto:Peter.Furniss@choreology.com";>Furniss, Peter</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A =
title=3Dmark.little@arjuna.com=20
href=3D"mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com";>Mark Little</A> ; <A=20
title=3Dmalik.saheb@arjuna.com =
href=3D"mailto:malik.saheb@arjuna.com";>malik=20
saheb</A> ; <A title=3Dws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org";>ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, February =
12, 2004=20
1:46 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> RE: [ws-caf] =
Agenda for=20
the demo application</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
=
class=3D251044413-12022004>WS-CAFites,</SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D251044413-12022004></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D+0><SPAN =
class=3D251044413-12022004></SPAN><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2>The <SPAN =
class=3D251044413-12022004>proposed=20
</SPAN>demo application, and Mark's comments on it are very =
interesting=20
as showing two different approaches by the author <SPAN=20
class=3D251044413-12022004>companies </SPAN>(who are to be =
congratulated=20
on having such discussions in the open, rather than huddling =
away in a=20
corner :-). But they raise a query I've had in my mind about=20
WS-Context.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>By design WS-Context can't be =
used=20
completely alone - there has to be some additional specification =
known=20
to the various parties - so in the demo application, the client =
and the=20
retailers all know of the shopping cart application. Exactly =
what=20
behaviour is required of them differs slightly between the demo =
as=20
written and Mark's suggestions - but the client has at least to =
know=20
that it has to put the context on the messages to the retailers, =
and the=20
retailers to know they must make their supplying part of the=20
cart.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The problem I have is that I =
can't quite=20
work out what WS-Context adds that isn't already available in =
SOAP=20
headers. The WS-Context-using shopping cart specification will =
be=20
identified by a URI (the "type" in the context -this is probably =
the=20
same as, or related to, the ALS-context identifier). A service =
receiving=20
a context with that uri (or finding it after dereferencing a=20
pass-by-reference context) will thus know what it has to do, as=20
specified by the shopping cart spec: but that's all part of the =
shopping=20
cart spec, and not WS-Context (especially if, as Mark suggests =
the=20
shopping cart ALS offers its own service, with addToCart,=20
removeFromCart).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Compare that with exactly the =
same shopping=20
cart service specified using SOAP header, and able to generate a =
unique=20
shopping cart identifier. The shopping cart specification =
defines a soap=20
header, using the namespace uri to identify it's headers among =
all the=20
other that exist. The header includes the URI of the shopping =
cart=20
service and any other identifiers - in fact exactly the same =
information=20
that it would need to specify as being contained in the context =
had it=20
used WS-Context. A service receiving a shopping cart header does =
exactly=20
the same things as one receiving a shopping cart =
context.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The demo app as described does =
have the=20
Context Service doing more, but that seems to be what can be =
done with=20
http anyway - the context identification URI labels a resource =
that can=20
be fetched (get) or changed (put) (but no equivalent of post at =
ctx=20
level).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The shopping-cart service is =
using the=20
Context-service to generate the unique identifier, but that =
isn't=20
difficult to do itself (and might well be counter-productive to =
take one=20
in from the Ctx service, since if the shopping cart chose its =
own URI's=20
it could put locally-meaningful (but externally opaque) =
information in=20
them, whereas if the URI is given to it by a Context Service the =
cart=20
service must indirect through a hash or whatever.)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>To summarise:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>What gain does a =
WS-Context-using=20
specification gain from WS-Context that it could not have got =
from the=20
combination of:<BR> <BR><SPAN=20
=
class=3D251044413-12022004> - </SPAN>SOAP=20
Headers, which identify, by the namespace URI which =
specification they=20
refer to and can contain elements and attributes of use to that=20
specification</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><FONT size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D251044413-12022004> - </SPAN>HTTP Get, =
Put and=20
Post which can fetch, set and modify a remotely-held body of =
information=20
unambiguously identified by a URI</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Good grief, I've turned into a =
RESTafarian=20
! <BR> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D793080400-12022004><FONT face=3DArial =
size=3D2>This isn't=20
to say there might not be something in the higher levels of =
WS-CAF (I=20
have thoughts on that too :-), but I have a suspicion that by =
the time=20
you've generalised the context-layer sufficiently to make it =
general=20
(i.e. to justify ws-context as a separate spec), there isn't =
anything=20
left worth specifying. Yes, several things need to pass around=20
identifications, and associated information and there are some =
protocol=20
design issues that are worthy of summarising (e.g. rules=20
about unambiguity must be precise, implications of id=20
exchange) but there isn't anything worth making into a =
distinct=20
protocol.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Peter</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>------------------------------------------<BR>Peter=20
Furniss<BR>Chief Scientist, Choreology Ltd<BR>web: <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.choreology.com/";>http://www.choreology.com</A><BR>emai=
l:=20
<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:peter.furniss@choreology.com";>peter.furniss@choreology.com=
</A><BR>phone:=20
+44 870 739 0066<BR>mobile: +44 7951 536168<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: =
#0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr =
align=3Dleft><FONT=20
face=3DTahoma size=3D2>-----Original =
Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> Mark=20
Little [mailto:mark.little@arjuna.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> 11 =
February=20
2004 11:53<BR><B>To:</B> malik saheb;=20
ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [ws-caf] =
Agenda for=20
the demo application<BR><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I've attached comments to the =
document.=20
As far as I can see, this still needs work. The architecture =
of the=20
application seems to be a very strange use of context in =
general, and=20
WS-Context specifically. Maybe this is a carry-over from the =
WS-I=20
demo?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Mark.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>----<BR>Mark Little,<BR>Chief =
Architect,=20
Transactions,<BR>Arjuna Technologies Ltd.<BR> <BR><A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.arjuna.com";>www.arjuna.com</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: =
5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- =
</DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A title=3Dmalik.saheb@arjuna.com=20
href=3D"mailto:malik.saheb@arjuna.com";>malik saheb</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
title=3Dws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org=20
=
href=3D"mailto:ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org";>ws-caf@lists.oasis-open.org</=
A>=20
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Monday, =
February 09, 2004=20
7:00 PM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [ws-caf] =
Agenda for=20
the demo application</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Hi=20
All<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">I =
have=20
attached the document explaining how the demo application =
can use=20
the WS-Context. <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">The way the=20
demo will use the other specifications will be provided =
later=20
according to the schedule described below and that follow =
the=20
following steps.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Before a=20
meeting we will produce a document describing the demo =
application=20
using a particular specification (deadline 1 week before the =
meeting)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
During a=20
meeting the document made previously available will be =
discussed=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Show a=20
demo application with a particular specification (no demo =
for the=20
</SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place><FONT face=3DArial =
color=3Dnavy=20
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Paris</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City><FONT=20
face=3DArial color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial"> =
meeting)=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">In other=20
words:<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">2<SUP>nd</SUP>=20
meeting - Paris<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Before=20
the meeting – we provide the demo application with the =
WS-CTX.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
During=20
the meeting – Discuss the demo application with WS-CTX =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">3<SUP>rd</SUP>=20
meeting </SPAN></FONT><st1:City><st1:place><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">New=20
Orleans</SPAN></FONT></st1:place></st1:City><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3Dnavy size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Before=20
the meeting – produce a document of the demo =
application with=20
WS-CF<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Discuss=20
of the application with WS-CF <o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Show the=20
Demo Application with the WS-Context (described in the =
previous=20
meeting)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">4<SUP>th</SUP>=20
F2F meeting (date to be determined) – =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Before=20
the meeting – produce a document of the demo =
application with=20
WS-TXM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Discuss=20
of the application with WS-TXM<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Show the=20
Demo Application with the WS-CF (described in the previous=20
meeting)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">5<SUP>th</SUP>=20
F2F meeting (date to be determined) – =
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">- =
Show the=20
Demo Application with the WS-TXM (described in the previous=20
meeting)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial color=3Dnavy =
size=3D2><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: navy; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Malik</SPAN></FONT><FONT=20
face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; =
FONT-FAMILY: Arial">=20
<o:p></o:p></SPAN></FONT></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3D"Times New Roman" =
size=3D3><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
12pt"><o:p> </o:p></SPAN></FONT></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>=
</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>
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