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Subject: RE: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE - No indication of how to process NACKs in normal case



+1

Thanks,
Sanjay
WS-RX TC Member 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Anish Karmarkar [mailto:Anish.Karmarkar@oracle.com] 
>Sent: Wednesday, Sep 07, 2005 10:55 AM
>To: Christopher B Ferris
>Cc: Marc Goodner; Winkler, Steve; ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
>Subject: Re: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE - No indication of how to 
>process NACKs in normal case
>
>Assuming that the Sequence hasn't failed or closed, RMS MUST 
>retransmit 
>all the messages that have not been ACKed (timing of those is upto the 
>RMS). This may happen due to timeout on the RMS side, receipt 
>of an ACK, 
>receipt of a NACK or the phase of the moon. From that perspective NACK 
>is a very good optimization and most implementations, I suspect, will 
>retransmit on receiving a NACK (except for special cases such 
>as the RMS 
>being overloaded, special optimization requirements, special 
>agreements 
>between RMS and RMD. mobile environment, etc).
>
>Nevertheless, including a MUST does not seem appropriate -- 
>since it is 
>possible that a ACK is received right after a NACK and the RMS decides 
>(correctly) not to retranmit the message.
>
>-Anish
>--
>
>Christopher B Ferris wrote:
>> I disagree. 
>> 
>> A Nack is an optimization of an Ack with gaps, true. 
>However, if the RMD 
>> is issuing Nacks
>> (it's choice) then to ensure the correctness of the 
>protocol, the RMS MUST 
>> retransmit the
>> messages, just as it MUST retransmit unacknowledged messages 
>as expressed 
>> as a
>> SequenceAcknowledgement with more than one 
>AcknowledgementRange elements.
>> 
>> What is not specified, nor should it be, is the timing of the 
>> retransmission.
>> 
>> Christopher Ferris
>> STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
>> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
>> blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
>> phone: +1 508 377 9295
>> 
>> "Marc Goodner" <mgoodner@microsoft.com> wrote on 09/07/2005 
>12:28:17 PM:
>> 
>> 
>>>Because this is up to the RMS and is only an optimization the RMD may
>>>use a MAY seems more appropriate here than either a SHOULD. A MUST is
>>>not acceptable, a SHOULD is. I think Steve's rationale for proposing
>>>this as a SHOULD based on previous discussion of this topic 
>was correct.
>>>
>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>From: Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com] 
>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:25 AM
>>>To: ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>Subject: RE: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE - No indication of how to 
>process NACKs
>>>in normal case
>>>
>>>+1
>>>
>>>Christopher Ferris
>>>STSM, Emerging e-business Industry Architecture
>>>email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
>>>blog: http://webpages.charter.net/chrisfer/blog.html
>>>phone: +1 508 377 9295
>>>
>>>"Winkler, Steve" <steve.winkler@sap.com> wrote on 09/07/2005 12:09:18
>>>PM:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Hi Doug,
>>>>
>>>>I went back and forth on that one myself for a little 
>while. I prefer 
>>>
>>>MUST too, but there appeared
>>>
>>>>to be some push back on this during the initial discussion 
>so I stuck 
>>>
>>>with SHOULD.  Your rationale
>>>
>>>>makes sense to me though and I would be fine (even happy) 
>to use MUST.
>>>
>>>Let's see what the group 
>>>
>>>>thinks on the call on Thursday.
>>>>
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Steve
>>>>-----Original Message-----
>>>>From: Doug Davis [mailto:dug@us.ibm.com] 
>>>>Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:37 AM
>>>>To: ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>>Subject: Re: [ws-rx] NEW ISSUE - No indication of how to 
>process NACKs
>>>
>>>in normal case
>>>
>>>
>>>>Steve, 
>>>>  +1 - although I'd prefer it to be a MUST to be consistent 
>with the 
>>>
>>>text for AckRequested - but 
>>>
>>>>since its really up to the RMS to determine when to do it anyway its
>>>
>>>not 
>>>a huge thing. 
>>>
>>>>thanks 
>>>>-Doug 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>>"Winkler, Steve" <steve.winkler@sap.com> 
>>>>09/06/2005 02:54 PM 
>>>>
>>>>To
>>>>
>>>><ws-rx@lists.oasis-open.org> 
>>>>
>>>>cc
>>>>
>>>>Subject
>>>>
>>>>[ws-rx] NEW ISSUE - No indication of how to process NACKs in normal
>>>
>>>case
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>All, 
>>>>Here's a description of the new issue I wanted to raise from the 
>>>
>>>discussion of the related issue i005 [1]. 
>>>
>>>>Title: Processing model of NACKs 
>>>>Description: Although it is assumed that a NACK will trigger 
>>>
>>>retransmission of a given message 
>>>
>>>>from the source to the destination there is no wording in 
>the current 
>>>
>>>version of the spec that 
>>>
>>>>describes this feature adequately. 
>>>>Justification: This will clarify to implementers the spriit of the
>>>
>>>spec 
>>>by spelling out in more 
>>>
>>>>concrete terms what is currently only implied. 
>>>>Target: Core 
>>>>Type: Design 
>>>>Proposal: 
>>>>Add the following to the spec directly before the text that is 
>>>
>>>incorporated as a resolution to i005: 
>>>
>>>>Upon the receipt of a Nack, an RM Source SHOULD retransmit 
>the message
>>>
>>>identified by the Nack as 
>>>
>>>>soon as possible. 
>>>>Cheers,
>>>>Steve 
>>>>
>>>>[1] http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200508/msg00272.html 
>>>>
>>>>--------------------------- 
>>>>Steve Winkler 
>>>>SAP AG 
>> 
>> 
>


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