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Subject: Re: [ws-rx] Prelim minutes of 5/25 ws-rx conf call


Gil

The arguments you are making need to be put in context. Even if you were 
right that its hard to handle SOAP mU processing (which I don't buy), I 
still believe that the extensibility of the RM protocol messages is an 
advanced feature with no clearcut well-defined use cases at this point 
in time. I don't think you are arguing that it is impossible to support 
these use-cases, only that it is hard. I think that it is perfectly 
acceptable that in a first release of a standard we leave these 
corner-case situations hard to implement.

So I also would like to concur - I believe this should be closed with no 
action.

Paul

Christopher B Ferris wrote:
>
> No, the SOAP processor doesn't *care*, it just does what every SOAP 
> processor is REQUIRED
> to do, mU checking of headers targetted to that node. How the 
> configuration of the handlers is
> managed is irrelevant.
>
> Paul had it exactly right. You have to do this for the RM elements 
> anyway (and for every other
> SOAP header that might possibly be decorated with a mU=true).
>
> Seriously Gil, with all due respect, you are making a mountain out of 
> a molehill and proposing
> something that is more complex than is needed.
>
> I concur with Marc; this should be closed with no action.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Christopher Ferris
> STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=440
> phone: +1 508 377 9295
>
> "Gilbert Pilz" <Gilbert.Pilz@bea.com> wrote on 05/25/2006 07:06:42 PM:
>
> > But you are effectively *making* it care be requiring the higher-
> > layer to register a unique SOAP header for every mU extension.
> >
> > - gp
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Doug.Bunting@Sun.COM [mailto:Doug.Bunting@Sun.COM]
> > > Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 4:02 PM
> > > To: Gilbert Pilz
> > > Cc: Paul Fremantle; Christopher B Ferris; tom@coastin.com; wsrx
> > > Subject: Re: [ws-rx] Prelim minutes of 5/25 ws-rx conf call
> > >
> > > The SOAP processor doesn't have to care.
> > >
> > > The point is it doesn't have to know any of that nesting /
> > > detailed information, Gil.  The SOAP processor need only care
> > > that the named mU header is understood.  "Understood" only
> > > has meaning to the handler and could easily mean "I can grok
> > > (random) extension foo in element bar when twiddle is false".
> > >  Doesn't seem any different from registering the handler for
> > > wsrm:CloseSequence in the first place from a SOAP processor
> > > perspective.
> > >
> > > thanx,
> > >     doug
> > >
> > > On 25/05/06 15:55, Gilbert Pilz wrote:
> > > > When you register the WS-RM headers with the SOAP processor
> > > you weren't saying anything about the contents of those
> > > headers, only that the SOAP processor should accept them. By
> > > surfacing the mU semantics of WS-RM extensions as SOAP
> > > headers you are linking the implementation details of a
> > > particular SOAP extension to your general SOAP processor.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I can't see how extending something like
> > > CloseSequence is "extending SOAP" in any meaningful sense. An
> > > extended CloseSequence and a non-extended CloseSequence both
> > > live inside soap:Body. Why should the SOAP processor care
> > > whether a child element of soap:Body has been extended (how
> > > would it even know this was an extension w/out access to the
> > > schema for that sub-element?) in some "semantically significant" way?
> > > >
> > > > - gp
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: Paul Fremantle [mailto:paul@wso2.com]
> > > >> Sent: Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:29 PM
> > > >> To: Gilbert Pilz
> > > >> Cc: Christopher B Ferris; tom@coastin.com; wsrx
> > > >> Subject: Re: [ws-rx] Prelim minutes of 5/25 ws-rx conf call
> > > >>
> > > >> Gil
> > > >>
> > > >> RM already has to "register" headers with the SOAP processor.
> > > >> In fact every SOAP header author does. Thats just what it takes to
> > > >> write an extension to SOAP. Now you're suggesting that we create a
> > > >> new mechanism with exactly the same model - in RM. Hmmm.
> > > Its a nice
> > > >> model, but I don't like it enough to want it twice.
> > > >>
> > > >> Paul
> > > >>
> > > >> Gilbert Pilz wrote:
> > > >>    
> > > >>> This means that you need to register every WS-RM must-understand
> > > >>> extension with the general SOAP processor. You're coupling
> > > >>>      
> > > >> your SOAP
> > > >>    
> > > >>> configuration (via the Qname of the header that refers to the
> > > >>> extension) to the internal details of the messages (e.g. a
> > > >>>      
> > > >> particular
> > > >>    
> > > >>> extension to CloseSequence) that will be carried within SOAP.
> > > >>> Extensions to WS-RM-defined messages should be handled at
> > > the WS-RM
> > > >>> layer and not surfaced to the general SOAP processor.
> > > >>> - gp
> > > >>>
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>      
> > > >> --------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> ----------
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     *From:* Christopher B Ferris [mailto:chrisfer@us.ibm.com]
> > > >>>     *Sent:* Thursday, May 25, 2006 3:04 PM
> > > >>>     *To:* tom@coastin.com
> > > >>>     *Cc:* wsrx
> > > >>>     *Subject:* Re: [ws-rx] Prelim minutes of 5/25 ws-rx conf call
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     From below:
> > > >>>     Doug B: (from chat) concretely: use a
> > > soap:mustUnderstand header
> > > >>>     which is handled using normal SOAP processing model, the given
> > > >>>     element's qname would be associated with semantics
> > > >>>      
> > > >> defined in the
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     relevant WS-RM extension, the SOAP processor doesn't
> > > >>>      
> > > >> have to know
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     the details of this extension just that a handler knows
> > > >>>      
> > > >> what to do
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     +1
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     I have tried to make this point repeatedly in the past.
> > > >>>      
> > > >> The whole
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     point of the SOAP header
> > > >>>     with mU=true is just to test that the extension is understood.
> > > >>>     Nothing more, nothing less. It need not
> > > >>>     reference an explicit instance of the extension. It is merely
> > > >>>     there to say: if the processor doesn't
> > > >>>     know what to do with this extension, DO NOT process
> > > >>>      
> > > >> this message.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     Cheers,
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     Christopher Ferris
> > > >>>     STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
> > > >>>     email: chrisfer@us.ibm.com
> > > >>>     blog:
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=440
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     phone: +1 508 377 9295
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     Tom Rutt <tom@coastin.com> wrote on 05/25/2006 05:40:54 PM:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > Prelim minutes 5/25 attached.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Please post any corrections to entire list before
> > > >>>      
> > > >> monday morning.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Tom Rutt
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > --
> > > >>>     > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > >>>     > Tom Rutt email: tom@coastin.com; trutt@us.fujitsu.com
> > > >>>     > Tel: +1 732 801 5744 Fax: +1 732 774 5133
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Prelim Minutes of OASIS WS-RX Teleconference
> > > >>>     > May 25, 2006
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Start Time:4:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay acted as chair.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Textual Conventions
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Ø Action Item
> > > >>>     > Motion
> > > >>>     > § Resolution
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 1 Roll Call
> > > >>>     > From Kavi:
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Over 32 of 46 voting members, meeting is quorate
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Tom Rutt agreed to take minutes.
> > > >>>     > 2 Agenda Approval
> > > >>>     > Agenda
> > > >>>     > 1) Roll Call
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 2) Review and approval of the agenda
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 3) Approval of the May 18, 2006 meeting minutes
> > > >>>     > http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/download.
> > > >>>     > php/18295/MinutesWSRX-051806.html
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 4) AI Review
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/members/action_ite
> > > >> m
> > > >>    
> > > >>> s.php
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 5) New issues since last conf-call
> > > >>>     > Watch for Marc's email
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 6) Review of changes due to i093
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00117.html
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00205.html
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 7) Issue Discussion:
> > > >>>     > a> i121 security threats and requirements
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 21
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > b> i122 security profiles
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 22
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > c> i124 security composition policy
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 24
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > d> i123 security profile agreement
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 23
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > e> i115 "must understand" attribute for extensions to
> > > >>>      
> > > >> RM components
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 15
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > 8) Any other business
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc G asked about issue 119. Also 125 seems ready.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: Doug D is not on the call, but since 125 was
> > > >>>      
> > > >> not included I
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > would put it at end.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc: could 115 be put before the security issues?
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > No objections to place 115 before security issues.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 3 Approval of the 5/18 minutes;
> > > >>>     > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/download.
> > > >>>     > php/18243/MinutesWSRX-051106.html
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Tom moved, Marc G seconded to approve 5/18 minutes.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > § No objection minutes for 5/18 meeting approved.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 4 AI Review
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-rx/members/action_ite
> > > >> m
> > > >>    
> > > >>> s.php
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > #0100: Tom Rutt & Bob volunteered to work on state
> > > >>>      
> > > >> table revisions
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > with Jacques
> > > >>>     > Owner: Jacques Durand
> > > >>>     > Status: Still Open
> > > >>>     > Assigned: 2006-05-09
> > > >>>     > Due: ---
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> -
> > > >>    
> > > >>> ----------
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > #0102: Marc G will prepare to start an issues list
> > > for Public
> > > >>>     reviewcomments
> > > >>>     > Owner: Marc Goodner
> > > >>>     > Status: Still Open
> > > >>>     > Assigned: 2006-05-22
> > > >>>     > Due: ---
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > >> -
> > > >>    
> > > >>> ----------
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > #0103: Paul F will address Marc G concerns and
> > > >>>      
> > > >> interop concerns in a
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > next version of schedule, including the member ballot
> > > >>>     > Owner: Paul Fremantle
> > > >>>     > Status: Still Open
> > > >>>     > Assigned: 2006-05-22
> > > >>>     > Due: ---
> > > >>>     > 5 New issues since last conf-call
> > > >>>     > none
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 6 Review of changes due to i093
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00117.html
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00205.html
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: there was considerable discussion on the list
> > > >>>      
> > > >> about this.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00263.html
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Doug B: There seems to be agreement on a small number
> > > >>>      
> > > >> of changes to
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > satisfy Marc G. I propose we accept Gils document
> > > >>>      
> > > >> with the small
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > number of changes Marc G and I agreed on, and include
> > > >>>      
> > > >> this as our
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > base document.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Anish: I have a preference for an alternative
> > > >>>      
> > > >> proposal that I sent.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > It might be better to not use the MUST/MAY OPTIONAL
> > > keywords.
> > > >>>     > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/ws-
> > > >>>     > rx/email/archives/200605/msg00266.html
> > > >>>     > I have an alternate proposal:
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Replace the offending parts with assertions that do
> > > >>>      
> > > >> not contain
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     any 2119
> > > >>>     > key words --
> > > >>>     > The cardinality of this [element|attribute] is [zero
> > > >>>      
> > > >> or more|one or
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > more|exactly one].
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > -Anish
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: I agree with Anish, we can use xml schema language for
> > > >>>     > cardinalities, avoiding the rfc 2119 keywords.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc G: this is inconsistent with the rest of the
> > > >>>      
> > > >> document. It would
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > suggest multiple changes elsewhere. I prefer the
> > > proposal from
> > > >>>     > myself and Doug. The text that Doug and I propose
> > > continues to
> > > >>>     > describe the elements themselves, without cardinality.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Anish: you can just get rid of existing improper 2119
> > > >>>      
> > > >> terms, and
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > replace with simple cardinality statements in English.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Doug B moved to accept proposal from Marc and himself, Marc
> > > >>>     Seconded.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Anish: speaks against it, since it states conformance
> > > >>>     constraints twice.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Doug B: in a particular change around wsrm:acksTo,
> > > >>>      
> > > >> the rfc 2119
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > language is about actions rm source must do and
> > > >>>      
> > > >> constraints on the
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > type. It is also about how the rm destination must
> > > >>>      
> > > >> respond. They
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > are not about cardinality.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Vote:
> > > >>>     > 13 Yes
> > > >>>     > 6 No
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > § Motion passed to accept proposal from Marc and Doub
> > > >>>      
> > > >> F to close
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     Issue 093.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Discussion on availability of Next working draft.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: if we do not include issues we resolve today, we can be
> > > >>>     ready soon.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: It should be ok to not include issues resolve
> > > >>>      
> > > >> on today's
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     call.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc G: the next wd will include all pending issues.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Bob F: also must include issue 93.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: we should have one available by cob Tuesday.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Anish: do we have exact text for Issue 96.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Bob: issue 113 is based on an interim spec from Gil.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Tom: those state tables came from an email from the Face to
> > > >>>     Face, from Matt.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Bob F: Jacques and I are eagerly awaiting a new draft
> > > >>>      
> > > >> which resolves
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > closed issues, to insert clause numbers in the state table.
> > > >>>     > 7 Issue Discussion:
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 7.1 I 115
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: an updated proposal from may 3 is at:
> > > >>>      
> > > >> http://lists.oasis-open.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00025.html
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: if other side does not understand the extension,
> > > >>>      
> > > >> the sender
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > must know that. We need some inditcation. This
> > > >>>      
> > > >> proposal defines a
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > wsrm specific attribute, to be used at the top level
> > > >>>      
> > > >> (only) of an
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > extension element, and we define a
> > > >>>      
> > > >> wsrm:mustunderstand Fault to use
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > if the receiver does not understand that extension.
> > > I added a
> > > >>>     > statement that the attribute cannot be used below the
> > > >>>      
> > > >> top element.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: I am opposed to this. Soap already has a must
> > > >>>      
> > > >> understand
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > model, and having wsrm add this is not the way to
> > > go. I would
> > > >>>     > rather add a soap header which states there is an
> > > >>>      
> > > >> extension element
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > being used, with a soap:mustUnderstand attribute.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Anish: I disagree that this is not independent of the soap
> > > >>>     > processing model. This wsrm:mustUnderstand attribute
> > > >>>      
> > > >> is checked
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > after the soap model does what it does.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: I have a problem with a new empty soap header,
> > > >>>      
> > > >> with a reference
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > to an extension used in another place. I think putting wsrm
> > > >>>     > semantics into the soap processing layer is not valid. It is
> > > >>>     > semantically wrong to use soap must understand,
> > > since there is
> > > >>>     > nothing wrong at the soap leve. The processing is
> > > >>>      
> > > >> better done at
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > the WSRM level.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul F: you could use a separate entity in a soap
> > > >>>      
> > > >> header. There
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > could be work around, but the general soap model
> > > >>>      
> > > >> allows the complex
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > case. Since I have not yet seen extensions proposed
> > > >>>      
> > > >> yet, I think
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > this is something for version 2. I prefer we defer
> > > this issue
> > > >>>     > resolution to a future version of the spec.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: I agree this should be deferred.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Doug B: (from chat) concretely: use a
> > > >>>      
> > > >> soap:mustUnderstand header
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > which is handled using normal SOAP processing
> > > model, the given
> > > >>>     > element's qname would be associated with semantics
> > > >>>      
> > > >> defined in the
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > relevant WS-RM extension, the SOAP processor doesn't
> > > >>>      
> > > >> have to know
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > the details of this extension just that a handler
> > > >>>      
> > > >> knows what to do
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc G: I agree with Doug B proposal on chat.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: with some of our security extensions, it would
> > > >>>      
> > > >> be better to not
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > close sequence if the receiver does not understand a
> > > >>>      
> > > >> requirement
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > needed by the requester for that sequence. I do not
> > > >>>      
> > > >> want to tightly
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > couple a general soap processing engine with the wsrm
> > > >>>     implementation.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: we should defer this issue since we do not yet have
> > > >>>     extensions.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Umit: I would prefer this issue to be deferred to a later
> > > >>>     version ofthe spec.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul F: Gil stated the security composition profile
> > > >>>      
> > > >> might need such
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > a mechanism. Is this intended to be outside the spec.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: I want that to be within this spec.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul F: then I think even more we should defer this.
> > > >>>      
> > > >> Why build in
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > features when we do not have a use case in the spec
> > > that needs
> > > >>>     them.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: It is unfair to require extensions to already
> > > >>>      
> > > >> exist before we
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > have such a mechanism.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: I would like to have it be clarified if Gil's
> > > >>>      
> > > >> proposal for
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > issue 123 requires this proposed solution.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: I would like to wait to answer this question
> > > >>>      
> > > >> until after we
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > discuss issue 123.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: I propose we defer resolution of 115 until
> > > >>>      
> > > >> after we discuss
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > the security related issues.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 7.2 i121 security threats and requirements
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 21
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: we need to realize that the sequence is a shared
> > > >>>      
> > > >> resource which
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > is being protected. I need to make sure the
> > > sequence ack comes
> > > >>>     > from the RMD which "owns" that sequence. This needs to be
> > > >>>     explained.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: the existing text also has unnecessary details.
> > > >>>      
> > > >> I just got
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > around to rewriting chaper 5. at: http://lists.oasis-open.
> > > >>>     > org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00096.html
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gill review the threats which must be dealt with.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: sequence hijacking is not the same as a session
> > > >>>      
> > > >> identifier.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: the text on message correlation threats (in
> > > 5.4) might be
> > > >>>     > better to remove altogether.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul F: I think this is basically a good rewrite,
> > > >>>      
> > > >> although I am not
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > a security expert. It uses terminology "integrity
> > > >>>      
> > > >> protected", and
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > it is not clear what this means. Could that be added
> > > >>>      
> > > >> to a glossary?
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: I agree that should be added to a glossary.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul F: I think we could accept this proposal, with
> > > >>>      
> > > >> removal of 5.4.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: The 8 requirements in the proposal in 5.5, do
> > > >>>      
> > > >> not correlate
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > back to the text on the 4 or 5 threats. If I only
> > > >>>      
> > > >> want to worry
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > about sequence hijacking, I do not know which of
> > > the items in
> > > >>>     5.5 apply.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: That is a good point, not everyone is worried
> > > about every
> > > >>>     > threat. The relationship between the threats an security
> > > >>>     > requirements needs to be clarified. I would like to
> > > >>>      
> > > >> take an action
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > item to come up with a new version which does that.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Ø Action: Gill will clarify his proposal for i121 to
> > > >>>      
> > > >> clarify the
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > relationship between requirements and the threats.
> > > >>>     > Doug D: I am not ready to make a final decision until
> > > >>>      
> > > >> we see the
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > result of this action item. I would like perhaps a
> > > >>>      
> > > >> straw poll on
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > whether Gil should bother to carry out this action
> > > >>>      
> > > >> item to come up
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > with a new proposal addressing the concerns raised on
> > > >>>      
> > > >> this call.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: straw poll Yes means continue to work, no
> > > >>>      
> > > >> means to not have
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > Gill Bother to update the proposal.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > No opposition to having Gil work on action item.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: he has threats, and requirements
> > > (solutions). I would
> > > >>>     > prefer to have three sections, threats, potential
> > > >>>      
> > > >> countermeasures,
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > and which countermeasure is used for each threat. The
> > > >>>      
> > > >> WSI has a
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > document which demonstrates this.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil : I agree with Paul C.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: we should continue post questions to the mail list.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: it might not be ready by next week call. The
> > > earlier the
> > > >>>     > better for any email to the list. Two weeks is
> > > >>>      
> > > >> probable too long a
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > time to wait. It would be better to be done before the next
> > > >>>     meeting.
> > > >>>     > 7.3 b> i122 security profiles
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 22
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil reviewed his proposal posted as http://lists.oasis-open.
> > > >>>     > org/archives/ws-rx/200605/msg00097.html
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: a profile does several things:
> > > >>>     > How rms and rmd authenticate each other when sequence
> > > >>>      
> > > >> is created.
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > For every message in sequence (traffic or control)
> > > >>>      
> > > >> how they know who
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > sent the message or inserted the header.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: I see three sets of profiles
> > > >>>     > Tls and other authendication
> > > >>>     > Tls and tls authentication
> > > >>>     > Ws secure conversation.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: there is different concerns about RMS
> > > >>>      
> > > >> authentication and AS
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > authentication. I would like other peoples opinion on this
> > > >>>     proposal.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc concern on web chat: I don't understand the TLS
> > > >>>      
> > > >> uris, aren't
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > you already connected over TLS by the time you are
> > > >>>      
> > > >> signaling you
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     areusing it?
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Marc: why does the RMS need to know whether the
> > > >>>      
> > > >> security applies to
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > its code or the application's code.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: if RMD is a separate node, it must ensure the
> > > >>>      
> > > >> identity of AS
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > flows to the AD. It is necessary for composability.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: This proposal for 122 is used in solution for 123.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Gil: the ability of two ends to know how to protect WSRM is
> > > >>>     > important. This can be done out of band. 123 is about
> > > >>>      
> > > >> the run time
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > agreement for those profiles. 122 is just about
> > > >>>      
> > > >> coming up with a
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > way for two people to agree on that they are using for wsrm.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Paul C: these profiles are collections of polices
> > > >>>      
> > > >> which and be used
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > out of band. Why not use ws-security policy.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Ran out of time.
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > Sanjay: continue to discuss security concerns on the list.
> > > >>>     > 7.4 c> i124 security composition policy
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 24
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > no time to discuss
> > > >>>     > 7.5 d> i123 security profile agreement
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >>
> > > http://docs.oasis-open.org/ws-rx/issues/ReliableMessagingIssues.xml#i
> > > >> 1
> > > >>    
> > > >>> 23
> > > >>>
> > > >>>     > no time to discuss
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>     > 8 Any other business
> > > >>>     > none
> > > >>>     >
> > > >>>    
> > > >>>      
> > > >> ______________________________________________________________
> > > >> _________
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > Notice: This email message, together with any
> > > attachments, may
> > > >>>     contain
> > > >>>     > information of BEA Systems, Inc., its subsidiaries
> > > >>>      
> > > >> and affiliated
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > entities, that may be confidential, proprietary,
> > > >>>      
> > > >> copyrighted and/or
> > > >>    
> > > >>>     > legally privileged, and is intended solely for the
> > > use of the
> > > >>>     individual
> > > >>>     > or entity named in this message. If you are not the intended
> > > >>>     recipient,
> > > >>>     > and have received this message in error, please immediately
> > > >>>     return this
> > > >>>     > by email and then delete it.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>      
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> Paul Fremantle
> > > >> VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair
> > > >>
> > > >> http://feeds.feedburner.com/bloglines/pzf
> > > >> paul@wso2.com
> > > >>
> > > >> "Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>    
> > >

-- 

Paul Fremantle
VP/Technology, WSO2 and OASIS WS-RX TC Co-chair

http://feeds.feedburner.com/bloglines/pzf
paul@wso2.com

"Oxygenating the Web Service Platform", www.wso2.com



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