RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 63 - Support of Array

["Eckenfels. Bernd" <B.Eckenfels@seeburger.de>]

David,

actually we do have an data mapping and splitting engine, no need to buy one. But from our experience data routing on a sub-transaction level is exactly the thing one wants to use a BPE for, anyway.

I mean, what is left if you remove merging/splitting and synchronizing?

If I understand you right "orchestration" of multiple ERP systems in differen factories is out of the scope for a BPEL engine? I hope my dear coleagues at Xxxx dont hear that, they may feel that the power of the Xxxx engine as an EAI tool is underestimated.

I already named a few examples, where one want to process documents as lines. Another good example is partial delivery. You can mark a process as fully shipped only, if you have received dispatch advices for all line items. In fact, if you look in the BPEL spec on page 92 (16.1.3) you will find exactly this pattern. Do you want to remove that sample from the spec?

I dont know why we should artificially limit a powerful workflow/process language to stupid "if then else" tasks.

And yes, personally I do not have a problem to invoke a splitting/merging service to kick off new sub-process, but I would liek to run them under the same initial master process, and I would like to understand the overall business process by reading one single abstract BPEL script which actually defines the state transitions possible. And this clearly includes the state "partially shipped".

Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Bernd Eckenfels
Chief Architect
--
SEEBURGER AG - Edisonstr.1 , D-75015 Bretten, Germany
Fax: +49 (0)7252 96-2400 - Phone: +49 (0)7252 96-1256
mailto:b.eckenfels@seeburger.de - http://www.seeburger.de


-----Original Message-----
From: David RR Webber [mailto:david@drrw.info]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 3:30 AM
To: Eckenfels. Bernd
Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 63 - Support of Array


Bernd,

Business Process Engine - splitting and merging?

I beg to differ.  Products like SyncSort and DataJunction 
are what come to mind when someone mentions such operations.

Please go and look at the OASIS CAM specification.  You see
picture masks, you see string handling, you see data conversion
functions, you see lookup functions to information sources,
you see business context rules for structure choices,
you see mapping to external data stores.

These are not operations of a Business Process Engine.

Similarly - as I pointed out - I do not expect to see
in the CAM spec' commands like <Wait>, <Reply>, <Signal>,
<StartProcess> and so on.

BUT - what we do need is the ability for the Business Process
Engine to call a Transaction handling engine (like CAM) and
to pass the business context parameters - say locale = "Germany" or
"USA" or "Mexico" - and then the transaction handler does the
correct actions and applies the correct business rules. 

I appreciate you want to just buy one piece of software - but
I really think that is an impractical wish.  Look at everyone
who can use a BPEL engine, HL7 Healthcare, EDI, EDIFACT, FIX,
FIXML, SWIFT, rapidly you see that BPEL "splitting and merging"
spec' will become as big as the rest of the spec'!

I think Seeburger can afford to buy good slitting and merging
engines to go with their BPEL engines ; -)

Fortunately if you choose CAM - both have consistent XML scripts
to operate them with - and (hopefully) a shared business context
mechanism!

Thanks, DW.



Quoting "Eckenfels. Bernd" <B.Eckenfels@seeburger.de>:

> Hello David,
> 
> > But trying to purpose these things against transaction content
> > and loops in XML content structures is a different story.  
> > By transaction I mean EDI, Purchase Order,
> > that stuff.  And so a Transaction engine processes same - products
> > like DataJunction, GoXML Transform, Mercator, MQSeries mapper,
> > OASIS CAM, and so on.  BPEL does not need to go there!  These things 
> > are all webservice enabled already - let them handle business
> > transactions, and pass back results required.
> 
> I strongly disagree here. One of the things a Business Process Engine has to
> do is splitting and merging. Typical examples are purchase orders from a
> customer, which has to be dispatched to multiple backend systems (for example
> different factories) or also a market place can process the shopping cart of
> a custoemr, which means to ask all the suppliers for the availability of the
> product. This is the intereesting stuff one wants to do with a process
> engine, and this is exactly why we (here at Seeburger) picked a language like
> BPEL to do this. I think there is even a looping sample in the spec or in one
> of IBM'S tutorials whic his iterating over the position lines of a document.
> 
> Greetings
> Bernd Eckenfels
> Chief Architect
> --
> SEEBURGER AG - Edisonstr.1 , D-75015 Bretten, Germany
> Fax: +49 (0)7252 96-2400 - Phone: +49 (0)7252 96-1256
> mailto:b.eckenfels@seeburger.de - http://www.seeburger.de
> 
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> 
> 


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