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Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation definitions


No, actually it wasn't. It was not clear whether Paco referred to the soap:header binding or the abstract "Header" message. Since he said "or anything else in the binding" I would assume he was only referring to the binding part.

In any case, I don't want to waste to much time discussing what WSIF exactly does (this was just an example, which might or might not be relevant). There are only two possibilities here:

1. A WSIF application cannot manipulate the "Header" abstract message.
Ok, so WSIF cannot handle the full range of WSDL files allowed by WSDL 1.1. Sorry, my WSIF example was not relevant to this discussion. (Of course, that does not mean other frameworks cannot handle it either - in fact, my example in issue 77 is taken from a real existing application of a customer of ours).

2. A WSIF application can manipulate the "Header" abstract message.
In this case the WSIF example is relevant and shows that WSIF applications can handle what BPEL cannot.

Ugo

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Satish Thatte [mailto:satisht@microsoft.com]
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:52 AM
> To: Ugo Corda; Francisco Curbera
> Cc: Ron Ten-Hove; Sanjiva Weerawarana; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation 
> definitions
> 
> 
> Hmm..  Paco wrote
> 
> The application using WSIF to access the service does not see 
> the header
> message or anything else in the binding
> 
> Was that not clear enough?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ugo Corda [mailto:UCorda@SeeBeyond.com] 
> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:45 AM
> To: Francisco Curbera
> Cc: Ron Ten-Hove; Sanjiva Weerawarana; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation 
> definitions
> 
> Paco,
> 
> The question relevant to this discussion is the following: can the
> application using WSIF see (i.e. set or get the value of) the abstract
> message defined outside the abstract port? We know that BPEL currently
> cannot.
> 
> Ugo
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Francisco Curbera [mailto:curbera@us.ibm.com]
> > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2003 8:22 AM
> > To: Ugo Corda
> > Cc: Ron Ten-Hove; Sanjiva Weerawarana; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation 
> > definitions
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Hi Ugo,
> > 
> > I would not agree with that conclusion. The way WSIF would 
> > support your
> > example in issue 77 is through a binding module (called a 
> > "provider" in
> > WSIF) that understans and takes care of the header as 
> > declared by the WSDL
> > binding. The application using WSIF to access the service 
> > does not see the
> > header message or anything else in the binding.  Same thing 
> > with non-SOAP
> > bindings. This is a key design point because otherwise you 
> loose your
> > ability to use different access channels with different QoS 
> > characteristics
> > to reach the same service (different bindings). It also results in a
> > cleaner programming model.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Paco
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >                                                               
> >                                                               
> >             
> >                       "Ugo Corda"                             
> >                                                               
> >             
> >                       <UCorda@SeeBeyond        To:       "Ron 
> > Ten-Hove" <Ronald.Ten-Hove@Sun.COM>, "Sanjiva Weerawarana"    
> >             
> >                       .com>                     
> > <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>                                      
> >                           
> >                                                cc:       
> > <wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>                                 
> >                  
> >                       11/20/2003 01:43         Subject:  RE: 
> > [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation definitions   
> >              
> >                       PM                                      
> >                                                               
> >             
> >                                                               
> >                                                               
> >             
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I conclude from this that my WSIF example seems appropriate for this
> > discussion. WSIF would be able to support a case like the one 
> > I gave for
> > issue 77, and it would be able to map the "Header" abstract 
> > message to any
> > particular binding I want to express (including, but not 
> > limited to, SOAP -
> > in particular, bindings that don't even have the concept of a 
> > header)). Is
> > that correct?
> > 
> > Ugo
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Ron Ten-Hove [mailto:Ronald.Ten-Hove@Sun.COM]
> > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 10:30 AM
> > To: Sanjiva Weerawarana
> > Cc: wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> > Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation 
> > definitions
> > 
> > WSIF is a set of bindings for Java and J2EE; it doesn't 
> > extend WSDL in any
> > non-standard way that I am aware of. WSIF "understands" WSDL 
> > files that use
> > those bindings. The message model is plain WSDL 1.1.
> > 
> > -Ron
> > 
> > Sanjiva Weerawarana wrote:
> >       I'm confused .. can you give an example of what you mean by
> >       "abstract messages that are not part of an abstract 
> operation"?
> >       Maybe I haven't understood what you have in mind ..
> > 
> >       Thanks,
> > 
> >       Sanjiva.
> > 
> >       ----- Original Message -----
> >       From: "Ugo Corda" <UCorda@SeeBeyond.com>
> >       To: "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>; "Francisco
> >       Curbera"
> >       <curbera@us.ibm.com>
> >       Cc: "Ron Ten-Hove" <Ronald.Ten-Hove@Sun.COM>; "Satish Thatte"
> >       <satisht@microsoft.com>; <wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>;
> >       <ygoland@bea.com>
> >       Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 7:04 AM
> >       Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified operation
> >       definitions
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >             So are you saying that WSIF can only process a 
> > subset of all
> >             the legal
> > 
> >       (according to WSDL 1.1) WSDL files? (Please notice 
> that I am not
> >       talking
> >       about adding any extension at the abstract level - just 
> > supporting
> >       what is
> >       allowed by WSDL 1.1)
> > 
> >             Ugo
> > 
> > 
> >                   -----Original Message-----
> >                   From: Sanjiva Weerawarana 
> > [mailto:sanjiva@watson.ibm.com]
> >                   Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 5:00 PM
> >                   To: Ugo Corda; Francisco Curbera
> >                   Cc: Ron Ten-Hove; Satish Thatte;
> >                   wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org;
> >                   ygoland@bea.com
> >                   Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue - 77 - Under specified
> >                   operation
> >                   definitions
> > 
> > 
> >                   "Ugo Corda" <UCorda@SeeBeyond.com> writes:
> > 
> >                         Just curious: does WSIF allow you to define
> >                         abstract
> > 
> >                   messages that are not
> >                   part of an abstract operation?
> > 
> >                         Ugo
> > 
> >                   No it doesn't; WSIF only adds additional 
> bindings to
> >                   WSDL,
> >                   not anything
> >                   at the abstract level.
> > 
> >                   Sanjiva.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >       To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed 
> > from the roster
> >       of the OASIS TC), go to
> >       
> > http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/le
> ave_workgroup.php
>       .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from 
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