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Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]


Assaf,

I'm not seeing this.  We are successfully using a subset of XPath in CAM and
it is working very sweetly.  This is already implemented using the standard
Java XPath libraries - and not only is it logical but also straightforward.

So - there is some value / condition that needs to be referenced and tested.
In BPEL I would say this is either some shared linkage area indicator - or
is in a transaction.  Either way you can use XPath to reference that - using
a namespace if necessary to denote its source.

DW.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Assaf Arkin" <arkin@intalio.com>
To: "David RR Webber" <david@drrw.info>
Cc: <ygoland@bea.com>; "'Maciej Szefler'" <mbs@fivesight.com>; "'rkhalaf'"
<rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com>; <wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]


> If you take the space of all XPath expressions and try to put it there,
> most of them will be invalid. You can try this using just the set of
> semantics expressed in XPath 1.0 and see how much of that stuff will not
> pass as valid in a join condition.
>
> The question is not how to get the result of process it, the result is
> an XPath boolean value, which XPath 1.0 supports. The question is how to
> specify the set of restrictions so it applies to any generic expression
> language, including unknown languages, and exactly what is the point of
> doing that? If you can only use 5% of a language, are you better off
> restricting it, or coming up with an alternative?
>
> Arkin
>
> David RR Webber wrote:
>
> >Yaron,
> >
> >I'm trying to grapple here with what the real problem is.
> >
> >I agree simple is vital - otherwise compliance testing
> >becomes a vast project for one - and implementation
> >another.
> >
> >What are why trying to do here with a JOIN?  Why do
> >we need a query language?  Surely this is trivial -
> >
> >Join condition({XPath expression}, #targetnode),
> >
> >Where #targetnode is a standard XML IDREF anchor
> >to some other point of the XML.
> >
> >When the condition is true you branch to the anchor.
> >
> >Am I missing something?
> >
> >DW.
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "Yaron Goland" <ygoland@bea.com>
> >To: "'Maciej Szefler'" <mbs@fivesight.com>; "'Assaf Arkin'"
> ><arkin@intalio.com>
> >Cc: "'rkhalaf'" <rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com>; <wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org>
> >Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:31 PM
> >Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>The question is what will cause the least amount of effort for users? To
> >>take an existing language that they are familiar with and routinely use
> >>
> >>
> >and
> >
> >
> >>then create a sub-set of it for use in join-conditions or to create an
> >>entirely new language specifically for join conditions and now force
users
> >>to learn two languages with potentially unrelated and inconsistent
> >>
> >>
> >syntaxes?
> >
> >
> >>I personally favor the former. I also think that if we are to finish
this
> >>spec in a reasonable amount of time we should avoid creating new query
> >>languages.
> >>
> >>Just my two cents,
> >>
> >>Yaron
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Maciej Szefler [mailto:mbs@fivesight.com]
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 9:55 AM
> >>>To: ygoland@bea.com; 'Assaf Arkin'
> >>>Cc: 'rkhalaf'; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Consistency should be reserved for areas where there is some
> >>>common domain.
> >>>As Assaf points out join conditions have nothing to do with XML node
> >>>selection, so why would we try to adopt an expression language aimed
> >>>squarely at XML node selection crippling it so that it no
> >>>longer does what
> >>>it was intended to do? It makes no sense to me. If anything
> >>>it makes things
> >>>confusing.
> >>>
> >>>Would a structured XML representation such as "<and><link
> >>>name="foo"/<link
> >>>name="bar"></and>" satisfy your objection to creating multiple sets of
> >>>grammars?
> >>>
> >>>-maciej
> >>>
> >>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>From: Yaron Goland [mailto:ygoland@bea.com]
> >>>Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 10:08 AM
> >>>To: 'Assaf Arkin'
> >>>Cc: 'rkhalaf'; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>Subject: RE: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]
> >>>
> >>>This has nothing to do with XML manipulation, this has to do
> >>>with the need
> >>>to have a consistent expression/query language used
> >>>throughout BPEL. If
> >>>someone is moving to a new expression/query language for all other
> >>>expressions in BPEL they should not be forced to use a different
> >>>expression/query language just for join conditions. That is why join
> >>>condition must have the same syntax flexibility that is
> >>>available to all
> >>>other expressions/queries.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>-----Original Message-----
> >>>>From: Assaf Arkin [mailto:arkin@intalio.com]
> >>>>Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 7:00 PM
> >>>>To: ygoland@bea.com
> >>>>Cc: 'rkhalaf'; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org
> >>>>Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Issue 13 - Updated Proposed Resolution]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Yaron Goland wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Imagine a prefix style XML manipulation language is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>introduced that does
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>things like "and(foo,bar)". No tool in its right mind is
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>going to say to the
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>user 'well you can use the prefix style everywhere in BPEL
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>but this one
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>single place, join conditions, where you have to use an
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>infix "foo and bar"
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>style.'
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>You're right.
> >>>>
> >>>>I've read the spec over and over and over and I still don't
> >>>>understand
> >>>>what XML manipulation has to do with join conditions. I don't
> >>>>see node
> >>>>selection, there's no context node or any variable/function
> >>>>you can use
> >>>>to operate on nodes. No operators are allowed unless they deal with
> >>>>binary values. If nodes are non-existent, then where does XML
> >>>>manipulation come into play?
> >>>>
> >>>>So while I agree with the logic you presented, I still fail
> >>>>to see how
> >>>>it applies to join conditions.
> >>>>
> >>>>arkin
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from
> >>>the roster of the
> >>>OASIS TC), go to
> >>>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/le
> >>>
> >>>
> >>ave_workgroup.
> >>php.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of
> >>
> >>
> >the OASIS TC), go to
>
>http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup
.php.
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of
the OASIS TC), go to
http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup.php.
> >
> >
>
>
> -- 
> "Those who can, do; those who can't, make screenshots"
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Assaf Arkin                                          arkin@intalio.com
> Intalio Inc.                                           www.intalio.com
> The Business Process Management Company                 (650) 577 4700
>
>
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