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Subject: Re: [wsbpel] Re: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]


Hi Danny,

Regarding your sentence below regarding how you understand publicly 
visible behavior as leading up to conformance. This is sounding like a 
common misunderstanding so I'm thinking it is probably an bad/overloaded 
wording thing.

In my longer note I try to explain what I meant by the phrase here and 
why it's not the black-box-and-look-at-messages idea. Any suggestions 
for different words that address that more clearly?

thks
Rania.


Danny van der Rijn wrote:
> rania-
> 
> if by "publically visible behavior" you mean that if i publish my BPEL 
> file ("publicly visible") then i would agree.  but i think that it's a 
> somewhat useless definition at that point.
> my understanding of "publicly visible behavior" was that it was the 
> behavior that one can observe from an engine that is running stuff that 
> i can't look at.  more like the definitions leading up to the observable 
> conformance definitions.  in which case i disagree that this covers the 
> templating (bad word in this case, maybe?) area of use cases that i 
> would submit that yaron's example falls into.
> 
> danny
> 
> rkhalaf wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>>
>> I think that "publicly visible behavior" covers both templating and 
>> observable stuff because it's the behavior that you make visible to 
>> the recipient of the file. In case of templating, that is the 
>> template-filling-person and he/she sees the part of the behavior that 
>> is expressed in this process. In the case of giving a description of 
>> your behavior to a third party (to implement, or to know how to 
>> interact with you etc) it's a complete description of what you will be 
>> doing.
>>
>> Perhaps later in the spec we can have a use cases section similar to 
>> the one in the circulated doc with templating and observable behavior 
>> scenarios explicitly mentioned. Could also be touched on in 107, to 
>> say "for example, in a templating scenario one would use opaque as an 
>> explicit fill point" .
>>
>> -Rania
>>
>> Nickolas Kavantzas wrote:
>>
>>> Satish Thatte wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Danny,
>>>>
>>>> I think your description of the challenge response metaphor for 
>>>> proving conformance represents a misunderstanding of the intent 
>>>> (brute force search among lots of randomly generated possibilities 
>>>> was not the idea).  Moreover, the templating case is explicitly 
>>>> supported in Rania's paper I believe.  Rania and I will address that 
>>>> separately.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are two definitions of an abstract process in the first page of 
>>> the document.
>>>
>>> The first one is the first paragraph of the doc.
>>>
>>> The second one is A on the 'Semantics of AbsProcesses' section.
>>> I am assuming that this is a potential use of an Abstract Process. So 
>>> the text should then be:
>>> A. An abstract process may describe the publicly visible behavior of 
>>> the services exposed by the process....(rest of the text in A)
>>>
>>> The other potential use of an Abstract Process is for 'templating' 
>>> and I would assume that this should be included in
>>> this section too as B (put the text for that).
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Nick
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But I am very curious about the specific details your customers 
>>>> would want to omit while still preserving the meaningfulness of the 
>>>> "process IP" they would be selling.  Do you have a list of features 
>>>> that ought to be allowed for omission?
>>>>
>>>> Satish
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>> From: Danny van der Rijn [mailto:dannyv@tibco.com]
>>>> Sent: Thu 9/23/2004 8:57 PM
>>>> To: rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com; wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org; 
>>>> wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> Subject: [Fwd: Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman]
>>>>
>>>> you don't see that every day.  i remembered the attachment, but 
>>>> forgot the inline text.
>>>>
>>>> the enclosed document is my quick reaction to the abstract 
>>>> presentation from yesterday.
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject:        Re: [wsbpel] abstract process strawman
>>>> Date:   Thu, 23 Sep 2004 20:52:21 -0700
>>>> From:   Danny van der Rijn <dannyv@tibco.com> <mailto:dannyv@tibco.com>
>>>> To:     rkhalaf@watson.ibm.com
>>>> CC:     wsbpel@lists.oasis-open.org, 
>>>> wsbpel-abstract@lists.oasis-open.org
>>>> References:     <41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com> 
>>>> <mailto:41507291.3010200@watson.ibm.com>
>>>>
>>>> rkhalaf wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        Hi everyone,
>>>>
>>>>        As promised, here is the abstract process strawman document I 
>>>> have been putting together. This work aspired to define a consistent 
>>>> view of abstract processes  and their use as the basis for 
>>>> continuted discussion and concrete proposals/resolutions.
>>>>
>>>>        According to the Agenda, tomorrow or Thursday will be when 
>>>> the abstract proc stuff will be discussed.
>>>>
>>>>        Regards,
>>>>        Rania
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ________________________________
>>>>
>>>>        To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from 
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the 
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster 
>> of the OASIS TC), go to 
>> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup.php. 
>>
>>
>>
> 
> To unsubscribe from this mailing list (and be removed from the roster of 
> the OASIS TC), go to 
> http://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/wsbpel/members/leave_workgroup.php. 
> 




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