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ServiceGroup: =B7 A Web service that is a collection of other Web services or WS-Resources and the information that pertains to them. The purpose of = the group is application domain specific. The means by which the membership= in the ServiceGroup is formed may be through ServiceGroupRegistration, or through other means not defined by this specification. "Sedukhin, Igor S" <Igor.Sedukhin@ca.com> wrote on 05/21/2004 12:05:55 = PM: > Tom, > > Due to [A ServiceGroup is a WS-Resource, following the implied > resource pattern] as defined in http://www.oasis-open. > org/apps/org/workgroup/wsrf/download.php/6580/WS-ServiceGroup.March%203= 1.f.doc > , one would need to obtain an EPR to talk to a ServiceGroup. So that > does not solve a problem of obtaining initial EPRs just yet. > > Either WSDM or WSRF has to clarify > 1) that a ServiceGroup can be used in a singleton pattern > 2) describe a normative way to determine whether a singleton > pattern can be used to communicate to a ServiceGroup [or WS-Resourse > in general, for that matter] > > I think it is reasonable to allow a management interface and a query > collection interface to be implemented by the same endpoint in an > intention to provide EPRs for the resources managed by a given Web > service endpoint. > +1 to reasonable to "allow". I just want to make sure we do not "requi= re" that to be true. > > > I think it is perfectly reasonable to be able to locate WS-Resource > qualified endpoint references. > I also think it is perfectly reasonable to standardize an interface > for querying/retrieving a collection or related WS-Resources. (BTW, > there is one of these already WS-ServiceGroup ;-) ) > > I think it is unreasonable (perhaps even outright wrong) to require > that the management endpoint interface and the interface for > querying/retrieving a collection MUST be implemented by the same endpoint. > > > > Fred Carter <fred.carter@amberpoint.com> wrote on 05/20/2004 06:38:22= PM: > > > <ScenarioPart> > > > > My scenario, unless I mentioned another to which I wasn't paying > > attention during the call, is as follows. > > > > Manager is started. It is given either a WSDL file (which > > corresponds to an endpoint for a manageability endpoint) or a URL > > (which corresponds to said endpoint -- assumed to have some known > capabilities). > > More precisely you mean that a manager is "given" a service element > and port, somehow. > > > > > Manager wants to use said endpoint to do its manager applicatio= n > > thing. To do so, it needs to find the resources available. > > > > Now what? > > > > that's it. I think this is the fundamental part of the so-called > > "WSDL->EPR" requirements. > > > > </ScenarioPart> > > > > <FredsCommentary> > > > > Responses to anticipated issues: > > > > Well, why not start with EPR's. > > 1) Cause we didn't. > > 2) Cause many web service applications follow the above > > pattern > > Today > > > Use [insert name] registry here. > > 1) Small site, I don't have one. > > 2) My first implementation will be the simplest one. Later= , I > > will add complexity with more moving parts, etc. > > It is fine if you "want" to implement an interface that provides > query and retrieval on the same endpoint as the management > interfaces. That is clearly an implementation choice; requiring ALL > implementations to make that same choice is overly constraining. > > > > > Why should we do this? Why isn't this left unspecified? > > Not asking for the interfaces to be left unspecified but rather > requesting that we give the implementers latitude in where and how > they implement that interface. > > > 1) Our intent, insofar as I can tell, is to provide a > > specification which is usable as is. We have made a number of > > decisions and taken directions based on the capability of extant to= ols > > and software stacks, to ensure that the specification is adoptable.= > > If the we rely on a implementation specific stuff to start up, > > especially for the simplest case (a small number of resources, one > > container, no uddi, etc.), I think we have an adoption problem. > > But you are relying on implementation stuff. You are suggesting (I > think) that EVERY implementation MUST provide this interface. If we > create hardened requirements for collocation of interfaces in an > implementation we introduce a fragility in the standard that will > eventually cause us grief/pain perhaps even thwarting adoption. > > > 2) We can certainly argue that there are should be some oth= er > > [heretofore nonexistent] specification in which the belongs. And t= hat > > may even be true. But we want folks to adopt & implement now, so > > basing our work on more things that might come real soon now seems > > fraught with peril. > > Lots of questions here. What do you think the product adoption > cycle of a standard is? As always wrt dependencies on other work; > however, reinventing, over-sepcifying, or ignoring other work are > equally fraught with peril. > > > 3) One /could/ make whatever a solution might be (say, the > > ListEPRs operation, for purposes of argument) optional so that "tin= y > > manageability provider endpoints" (or dynamic ones) could function > > without fear, but I think we should provide the definition nonethel= ess. > > +1 to this. Normatively describe the interface and make it optional.= > > > At a higher level, I think that any system wherein access to said > > resources is provided by other access providers (e.g. WSRF-based > > things > > :-) ) must have a means by which one can determine which resources = are > > accessed via what access provider (modulo permissions, etc.). This= is > > a bootstrap issue. It may be that there are options (e.g. use some= > > registry), but then one must be able to find said registry. (Perhap= s > > we define some appropriate fault or property that directs the calle= r > > to said registry when necessary.) Consequently, I tend to think th= at > > this is a general problem for WSRF. > > Some aspect of this may be WSRF. However, I think you will find > that WSRF TC will not standardize service implementations. They MAY > standardize a fault mechanism (which is an interesting idea). > > > > > [It may be appropriate higher up in the chain (it may be some of th= e > > defined mechanism behind ...Addressing), but since WS-Addressing is= > > agnostic on what the properties are used for, it may not be > > appropriate there.] > > > > </FredsCommentary> > > <snip/> T o m=A0=A0 M a g u i r e STSM, On Demand Architecture Poughkeepsie, NY=A0 12601 internet: =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 tmaguire@us.ibm= .com phone:=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 845.= 433.9401 (t/l 293-9401)=
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