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Subject: Re: [wsrp-wsia] Roles







What I am saying is that we either need to clearly define the semantics
(including how roles can be mapped when there is no match in the
granularity of role definitions) or drop all concept of roles from the
spec. Note that the later case does not eliminate using roles when both
sides agree on how to do this (e.g. JSR109), but rather leaves this area to
other specifications the end-points also choose to support.



                                                                                                                   
                      Alejandro                                                                                    
                      Abdelnur                 To:                                                                 
                      <alejandro.abdeln        cc:       wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org                            
                      ur@sun.com>              Subject:  Re: [wsrp-wsia] Roles                                     
                                                                                                                   
                      11/26/2002 12:54                                                                             
                      PM                                                                                           
                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                   



Rich,

Are you suggesting to drop the predefined roles from the spec?

Alejandro

Rich Thompson wrote:




      This mapping works reasonably in a J2EE environment because the
      granularity
      of role definitions doesn't vary too dramatically. As a web service
      spec,
      WSRP had better worry about cross platform issues as well. As soon as
      one
      moves out of the J2EE world, the chances that the granularity of role
      definitions is close drops precipitously.

      Rex suggested the role fields could just be optional ... they are,
      but what
      this means for a Consumer that doesn't use roles and wants to use the
      maximum number of Producers is pretending they support the spec
      defined
      roles (e.g. mapping whatever internal access control mechanisms are
      in use
      to the spec defined roles) and trying to map these onto the Producer
      published roles. I assert this will fail miserably more than it will
      succeed.




                            Andre Kramer

                            <andre.kramer@eu.        To:
      wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
                            citrix.com>              cc:

                                                     Subject:  RE:
      [wsrp-wsia] Roles
                            11/26/2002 08:48

                            AM






      J2EE also has the concept of role mapping in that a developer can
      write her
      application in terms of her usual set of roles. The deployer of the
      application can then map those roles, at deployment time, using a
      relatively
      simple XML role reference description mechanism. I view wsrp consumer
      roles
      as the analogue of the J2EE developer's role set, the consumer Portal
      admin
      as the analogue of the application deployer (at service registration
      time),
      and the role names on the wire as the J2EE container roles. So, we
      potentially have two similar mappings of roles: consumer to producer
      and
      JSR
      168 Portlet to J2EE Container? Each requiring human intervention.

      regards,
      Andre

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
      Sent: 26 November 2002 12:52
      To: Martin Bryan
      Cc: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
      Subject: Re: [wsrp-wsia] Roles







      I have had the uneasy feeling about roles for a while, but rewriting
      those
      sections finally caused me to focus on it enough to see the detailed
      reasons why (you site some good examples). At this point I think it
      is only
      useful to that set of Consumer-Producer pairs that have a coordinated
      set
      of roles and since we won't be able to define tight semantics it
      doesn't
      belong in the spec.

      On the address side, the variations in address are a big issue and
      WSRP is
      not the right place to tackle it. We took guidance from the P3P data
      model
      in this area though we did need to provide some structure for their
      unstructured portions. I was hoping much of the variability could go
      into
      the field named street as this is an array of strings. In addition,
      each of
      the structures is individually extensible with the expectation that
      some of
      those extensions will come back for consideration as base level
      fields in
      v2. If there are other sources that would give a more
      internationalized
      view of this area, we certainly would appreciate a pointer ....





                            "Martin Bryan"

                            <mtbryan@sgml.u-n        To:       Rich
      Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS
                            et.com>                  cc:

                                                     Subject:  Re:
      [wsrp][wsia]
      Draft spec v0.85
                            11/25/2002 11:35

                            AM









      Rich


            Reflecting on this further, the whole schema of role mapping
            only really
            works when there is a huge overlap in the roles supported at
            the Producer
            and the Consumer. To me this is more and more smelling like
            something

      that

            belongs as an extension rather than an inherent part of the
            spec.


      At last you are beginning to see the problem. Now consider what
      happens if
      the Producer is Finnish and the Consumer is Japanese and both use
      their own
      languages to define their services. Now we have a real problem, which
      will
      only be solved if you introduce a multilingual ontology of mapped
      terms
      into
      the equation.

      The real problem, however, is how to do this dynamically, so that we
      can
      annotate recorded roles with "related names from other sources" (e.g.
      record
      that someone has determined, by some off-line means, that A relates
      to B).

      Incidentally your address info structure in section 10 has not been
      suitably
      internationalized. You need techniques for defining subsections of
      what you
      call cities (e.g. Kensington, London) and for identifying blocks
      (both at
      street and house level) and subunits of buildings (flats or suites).
      For
      example, I have a friend in Roumania for whose address I need to
      identify
      the flat number, the staircase, the block on the road (unless you
      call
      Block
      26 a name!) and the district of the town in addition to the fields
      you
      allow
      me to define once only if I want to send him something. It looks like
      I'm
      going to have to define more extensions than you do base fields, even
      though
      every different Consume and Producer will have to define his own set
      of
      extensions for most of these :-(

      Martin Bryan
      The SGML Centre, 29 Oldbury Orchard, Churchdown, Glos GL3 2PU, UK
      Phone/Fax: +44 1452 714029  E-mail: mtbryan@sgml.u-net.com

      For further details about The SGML Centre visit
      http://www.sgml.u-net.com











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