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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,and CAN su pport edit
Rich,
I totally agree on the must, and the new issues you raised clinch it for me.
On the CAN issue, we must not forget that WSIA is in this too. A SHOULD
requirement for every portlet to implement state change is a bit heavy on
the Producer who just doesn't need that capability. To use your argument -
entities with a planned deployment to Consumers who manage their own
personalization UI would not need to do this, but nevertheless, the spec
recommends them to do so.
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tue, December 03, 2002 15:54
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN
su pport edit
At the Sept F2F in Germany we explicitly made state change independent of
mode. Another reason that edit mode can not become a MUST is that we
decided Consumer generated UIs for personalization had to be supported by
the spec. Entities with a planned deployment to only such an environment
should not be required to implement their own UI as well.
I could be talked into dropping this level to a CAN, but would resist.
While I will argue it can not be required, I also think entity developers
should think carefully and develop significant reasons before deciding not
to implement edit mode. This is exactly the meaning of SHOULD. Dropping it
to CAN would make it totally optional ... I think good reasons are needed
when choosing not to implement edit mode (and that they are possible).
Rich Thompson
Interaction Middleware and Standards for Portal Server
IBM T.J. Watson Research Center
Yorktown Heights, NY
(914) 945-3225
richt2@us.ibm.com
"Tamari, Yossi"
<yossi.tamari@sap To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
.com> cc:
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia]
[I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
12/02/2002 01:39 and CAN su pport edit
PM
Hi Gil,
I probably don't understand your question, but the entityStateChange is
already in InteractionParams, and I think one of the reasons for this was
specifically this use case.
If my memory serves me well, Sasha raised this in the F2F in Germany.
Where do you see the problem?
Yossi.
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:34 PM
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and
CAN su pport edit
Ouch! So the entityStateChange is relevant for view mode too? The
Consumer can't assume that state change won't occur in view mode?
-----Original Message-----
From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 20:30
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,
and CAN su pport edit
Hi,
For 1, my answer is that an entity may support personalization
through its view mode (for example by simply remembering the
last values a user entered in a text input).
Yossi.
-----Original Message-----
From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
[mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:59 PM
To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support
help, and CAN su pport edit
Hello,
FWIW. I guess that the questions are:
1. Are we allowing personalization for an entity that
doesn't support the Edit mode (if so, how)?
2. Are there other reasons, not personalization, for
supporting an Edit mode?
Take care.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:58 AM
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD
support help, and CAN su pport edit
Let's go that route -
Edit mode is defined (5.10.2) as "[providing]
content and logic that let a user customize the
behavior of the entity". Let's define
personalization as "enabling the user to customize
the behavior of the entity".
Thus, the sentence "the entity MUST support edit
mode if it allows personalization" becomes "the
entity MUST support content and logic that let a
user customize the behavior of the entity if it
enables the user to customize the behavior of the
entity".
The expanded sentence above is almost a tautology,
except for the fact that entities may enable
customization of their behaviors out-of-band. Thus,
an entity that enables the user to customize the
behavior of the entity out-of-band may want NOT to
support WSRP content and logic that does the same
(i.e. edit mode), for various reasons.
So, given the above precise definitions, I still
think this is a SHOULD.
Gil
-----Original Message-----
From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
[mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 18:35
To: 'Gil Tayar';
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity
SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit
Hello,
It would seem that we have to describe what
the edit mode is for (personalization?) in
unambiguous terms somewhere. Sometimes, I am
a bit afraid that we are using a lot of
"SHOULDS" to cover uncertainty and ambiguity
when it is up to us to know (or at least act
like we know) the right answer.
Thoughts?
Take care.
Joe Rudnicki
-----Original Message-----
From: Gil Tayar
[mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:09
AM
To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An
entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su
pport edit
A MUST of this sort would need to
really describe what "personalization"
is, and I wouldn't want to go to that
route! With a SHOULD, I think we can go
with a vague definition of
"personalization".
-----Original Message-----
From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC
[mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL]
Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002
17:55
To: 'Tamari, Yossi';
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164]
An entity SHOULD support help,
and CAN su pport edit
Hello,
Perhaps, "...MUST support edit
mode if it allows
personalization?"
Take care.
Joe
-----Original Message-----
From: Tamari, Yossi
[mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 01,
2002 1:18 PM
To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia]
[I#164] An entity SHOULD
support help, and CAN su
pport edit
I second this. Many
entities simply do not have
(need) an edit mode. A "Top
business news" portlet may
not be personalizable.
Maybe the wording should be
"... SHOULD support edit
mode if it allows
personalization".
Yossi.
-----Original
Message-----
From: Gil Tayar
[mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com]
Sent: Sunday,
December 01, 2002
1:13 PM
To:
wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org
Subject: [wsrp-wsia]
[I#164] An entity
SHOULD support help,
and CAN support edit
Issue: 164
Status: Active
Topic: interface
Class:
Minor_Technical
Raised by: Gil Tayar
Title: An entity
SHOULD support help,
and CAN support edit
Date Added:
1-Dec-2002
Document Section:
v0.85/5.10
Description:
In v0.85, an entity
SHOULD support both
edit and help. I
think SHOULD for edit
is too strong a
recommendation, as it
puts a fantastic
burden on the
portlets. As Help is
very simple to
implement, I think
the wording should be
changed to: "an
entity SHOULD support
help, and CAN support
edit".
Gil Tayar
WebCollage
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