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Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help,and CAN su pport edit
Hi, I would favour SHOULD support EDIT. I see two reasons for it. First we defined and probably agreed some version ago that the EDIT mode is the place where it should provide content and logic to the let the user customize the behaviour. This is the same definition which is used in JSR168. We made many efforts to make both standards fit together, why break it now. I think we should (one more should here) keep the definition we found in both committees. Yes, there are portlets which do not need customization/personalization. I woud say these don't need to implement EDIT mode. That's why SHOULD is placed here not a MUST. Second, we decided to have support for consumer gen'd UIs (as Rich stated before). Therefor it remains a SHOULD not a MUST. Of course one could do all that stuff in VIEW mode, but what's the difference in implementing it in VIEW or EDIT mode? Is there more effort in implementing EDIT mode in that case? (One could also do it in MINIMIZED window state - just kidding :-)) Here it is a question how the customization is presented to the end-user. And in the portal environment EDIT seems to be well understood for this purpose. Mit freundlichen Gruessen / best regards, Richard Jacob ______________________________________________________ IBM Lab Boeblingen, Germany Dept.8288, WebSphere Portal Server Development Phone: ++49 7031 16-3469 - Fax: ++49 7031 16-4888 Email: mailto:richard.jacob@de.ibm.com |---------+----------------------------> | | Rich | | | Thompson/Watson/I| | | BM@IBMUS | | | | | | 12/04/2002 01:53 | | | PM | | | | |---------+----------------------------> >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | | | To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit | | | | | >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| RFC2119 defines SHOULD as: "This word, or the adjective "RECOMMENDED", mean that there may exist valid reasons in particular circumstances to ignore a particular item, but the full implications must be understood and carefully weighed before choosing a different course." while MAY is defined as: "This word, or the adjective "OPTIONAL", mean that an item is truly optional. One vendor may choose to include the item because a particular marketplace requires it or because the vendor feels that it enhances the product while another vendor may omit the same item. An implementation which does not include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does include the option, though perhaps with reduced functionality. In the same vein an implementation which does include a particular option MUST be prepared to interoperate with another implementation which does not include the option (except, of course, for the feature the option provides.)" My argument in favor of SHOULD is that those cases where it makes sense to not implement edit mode need to be carefully thought through. Limitations on deployment and ability of the user to personalize the entity need to be understood before making this choice. The choice is still available, just not completely up to the whim of the developer. Rich Thompson Gil Tayar <Gil.Tayar@webcol To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org lage.com> cc: Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, 12/03/2002 11:58 and CAN su pport edit PM Rich, I totally agree on the must, and the new issues you raised clinch it for me. On the CAN issue, we must not forget that WSIA is in this too. A SHOULD requirement for every portlet to implement state change is a bit heavy on the Producer who just doesn't need that capability. To use your argument - entities with a planned deployment to Consumers who manage their own personalization UI would not need to do this, but nevertheless, the spec recommends them to do so. Gil -----Original Message----- From: Rich Thompson [mailto:richt2@us.ibm.com] Sent: Tue, December 03, 2002 15:54 To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit At the Sept F2F in Germany we explicitly made state change independent of mode. Another reason that edit mode can not become a MUST is that we decided Consumer generated UIs for personalization had to be supported by the spec. Entities with a planned deployment to only such an environment should not be required to implement their own UI as well. I could be talked into dropping this level to a CAN, but would resist. While I will argue it can not be required, I also think entity developers should think carefully and develop significant reasons before deciding not to implement edit mode. This is exactly the meaning of SHOULD. Dropping it to CAN would make it totally optional ... I think good reasons are needed when choosing not to implement edit mode (and that they are possible). Rich Thompson Interaction Middleware and Standards for Portal Server IBM T.J. Watson Research Center Yorktown Heights, NY (914) 945-3225 richt2@us.ibm.com "Tamari, Yossi" <yossi.tamari@sap To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org .com> cc: Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, 12/02/2002 01:39 and CAN su pport edit PM Hi Gil, I probably don't understand your question, but the entityStateChange is already in InteractionParams, and I think one of the reasons for this was specifically this use case. If my memory serves me well, Sasha raised this in the F2F in Germany. Where do you see the problem? Yossi. -----Original Message----- From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 8:34 PM To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Ouch! So the entityStateChange is relevant for view mode too? The Consumer can't assume that state change won't occur in view mode? -----Original Message----- From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com] Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 20:30 To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Hi, For 1, my answer is that an entity may support personalization through its view mode (for example by simply remembering the last values a user entered in a text input). Yossi. -----Original Message----- From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 6:59 PM To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Hello, FWIW. I guess that the questions are: 1. Are we allowing personalization for an entity that doesn't support the Edit mode (if so, how)? 2. Are there other reasons, not personalization, for supporting an Edit mode? Take care. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:58 AM To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Let's go that route - Edit mode is defined (5.10.2) as "[providing] content and logic that let a user customize the behavior of the entity". Let's define personalization as "enabling the user to customize the behavior of the entity". Thus, the sentence "the entity MUST support edit mode if it allows personalization" becomes "the entity MUST support content and logic that let a user customize the behavior of the entity if it enables the user to customize the behavior of the entity". The expanded sentence above is almost a tautology, except for the fact that entities may enable customization of their behaviors out-of-band. Thus, an entity that enables the user to customize the behavior of the entity out-of-band may want NOT to support WSRP content and logic that does the same (i.e. edit mode), for various reasons. So, given the above precise definitions, I still think this is a SHOULD. Gil -----Original Message----- From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL] Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 18:35 To: 'Gil Tayar'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Hello, It would seem that we have to describe what the edit mode is for (personalization?) in unambiguous terms somewhere. Sometimes, I am a bit afraid that we are using a lot of "SHOULDS" to cover uncertainty and ambiguity when it is up to us to know (or at least act like we know) the right answer. Thoughts? Take care. Joe Rudnicki -----Original Message----- From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com] Sent: Monday, December 02, 2002 11:09 AM To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit A MUST of this sort would need to really describe what "personalization" is, and I wouldn't want to go to that route! With a SHOULD, I think we can go with a vague definition of "personalization". -----Original Message----- From: Rudnicki Joseph G CONT NSSC [mailto:RudnickiJG@NAVSEA.NAVY.MIL] Sent: Mon, December 02, 2002 17:55 To: 'Tamari, Yossi'; wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit Hello, Perhaps, "...MUST support edit mode if it allows personalization?" Take care. Joe -----Original Message----- From: Tamari, Yossi [mailto:yossi.tamari@sap.com] Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:18 PM To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: RE: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN su pport edit I second this. Many entities simply do not have (need) an edit mode. A "Top business news" portlet may not be personalizable. Maybe the wording should be "... SHOULD support edit mode if it allows personalization". Yossi. -----Original Message----- From: Gil Tayar [mailto:Gil.Tayar@webcollage.com] Sent: Sunday, December 01, 2002 1:13 PM To: wsrp-wsia@lists.oasis-open.org Subject: [wsrp-wsia] [I#164] An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN support edit Issue: 164 Status: Active Topic: interface Class: Minor_Technical Raised by: Gil Tayar Title: An entity SHOULD support help, and CAN support edit Date Added: 1-Dec-2002 Document Section: v0.85/5.10 Description: In v0.85, an entity SHOULD support both edit and help. I think SHOULD for edit is too strong a recommendation, as it puts a fantastic burden on the portlets. As Help is very simple to implement, I think the wording should be changed to: "an entity SHOULD support help, and CAN support edit". Gil Tayar WebCollage ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl> ---------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe or unsubscribe from this elist use the subscription manager: <http://lists.oasis-open.org/ob/adm.pl>
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