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Subject: Re: [wsrp] Clearification: Resource URLs and markup params, etc.


I was wondering if you could clarify;

1)Mode/state
 It seems that request and change of both wsrp-mode and wsrp-windowState are intended to happen in the same fashion that is
Porlet requests a change, consumer MUST honor it (unless exception), consumer reflects status in markup param?
However wording in respective sections is slightly different:

"consumer MUST respect requests to change the mode outside of exceptional circumstances ()"
"consumer SHOULD  choose to respect this request to change the window state.."

If indeed the intended behavior was the same the wording should reflect that.


2) Section10.2.1.5 and 10.2.1.6
changing mode or windowState param in MarkupParams is secondary thing IMHO the actual request is to change mode or windowState.
Consumer reflect "acceptance" (or deny if special circumstances arose) of the request by submitting proper params?

Those sections have references to 6.9/6.10 but only in context of allowable selection.
Making a general reference in terms of actual semantics of request/change would be useful IMO particularly for the reader who jumped to this section without reviewing 6.0

Thanks,
Wesley

Rich Thompson wrote:

I think one must examine the meaning of the portlet url parameters before attempting to assign meaning for potential new uses. In the case of wsrp-mode, the meaning is defined in 10.2.1.5 as "a request to change the mode parameter in MarkupParams into the mode specified as the value for this portlet URL parameter".  Section 6.9 discusses how the mode parameter describes the Consumer is management of the End-User's interactions with the Portlet and that all the Portlet can do is request changes related to this management. Consumer denial of the request is limited to "exceptional circumstances" with a provided example of "access control restrictions". What I am hearing on this email thread is that people view processing a resource URL as another such example as the semantics of a resource URL do not provide an opportunity for the Consumer to adjust how it is managing the Portlet's markup.

Of course there are implementation choices which allow the Consumer to impact the larger page as part of a URL activation, but I would argue there is a semantic mismatch between those implementation choices and what the spec defines for a resource URL. Rather than attempting a force fit of the semantics, I would encourage exploring whether those choices aren't actually extending the getMarkup semantics to include partial page updates. I suspect that is a better semantic match and it explicitly recognizes that the protocol is being extended by the implementation.

Rich



Subbu Allamaraju <subbu@bea.com>

02/21/06 10:34 PM

To
WSRP TC <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>
cc

Subject
Re: [wsrp] Clearification: Resource URLs and markup params, etc.







Interesting. I have not noticed this till you pointed it out.

What does it then mean to supply windowState and mode params with
getResource requests? To keep these symmetric, we should include these
params for resource URLs, and specify that these parameters do not
indicate a mode/window state change, but only apply to the current request?

Subbu

Michael Freedman wrote:
> FYI I had recently checked this:
> Section 10.2.1.5 and 10.2.1.6 are very explicit about where wsrp_mode
> and window_state are valid:
>
> The wsrp-mode portlet URL parameter MAY be used whenever the
> wsrp-urlType portlet URL parameter has a value of “blockingAction” or
> “render”.
>
> The wsrp-windowState portlet URL parameter MAY be used whenever the
> wsrp-urlType portlet URL parameter has a value of “blockingAction” or
> “render”.
>
> -Mike-
>
> Richard Jacob wrote:
>
>> What also strikes me in this context is that we seem to be ambigeous when
>> we're reusing our structures / url-rewrite-tokens.
>> I think we should have a more crisp definition on which structure
>> elements/members sense (or are even allowed) for which operation.
>> I would argue that this significantly helps developers in
>> understanding and
>> implementing the same protocol without the possibility to (mis-)interpret
>> the spec in different ways.
>> So it's a tradeoff between protocol flexibility and protocol clarity.
>> One example here is the reuse of markupContext with getResource(). I
>> don't
>> think that setting a new portlet title makes sense when delivering a
>> resource if we agree on Rich's semantical differentiation between
>> getMarkup() and getResource() - and I have the sense that we probably
>> have.
>> The same issue is the window state and portlet mode in resource URLs.
>>
>> Reviewing chapter 10 it striked me that we don't clearly describe
>> which url
>> parameters are allowed for which url-type (example wsrp-url in action
>> URLs
>> makes definitly no sense).
>> I would therefor mandate to rewrite the BNF of our URL formats to clearly
>> denote which url params can be used for which url-type. Also I would
>> suggest to use BNF notation to denote mandatory and optional parameters.
>> I think this would also help developers to understand the semantics of
>> the
>> URLs and their according operations better.
>>
>> Mit freundlichen Gruessen / best regards,
>>
>>        Richard Jacob
>> ______________________________________________________
>> IBM Lab Boeblingen, Germany
>> Dept.8288, WebSphere Portal Server Development
>> WSRP Team Lead & Technical Lead
>> WSRP Standardization
>> Phone: ++49 7031 16-3469  -  Fax: ++49 7031 16-4888
>> Email: mailto:richard.jacob@de.ibm.com
>>
>>
>>                                                                          
>>             Rich
>> Thompson                                                            
>> <richt2@us.ibm.co                                            
>>             m>                                                        
>> To                                       WSRP TC
>> <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>             02/21/06 05:21
>> PM                                          cc
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                  
>> Subject                                       Re: [wsrp]
>> Clearification: Resource                                       URLs
>> and markup params, etc.        
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with your general comments; Without having spent much time
>> reviewing this phrasing, I would think the clarifications would look
>> something like:
>>
>> - (6.1.13 - MarkupResponse): Since the MarkupContext structure could
>> provide a new sessionID after the Consumer has begun sending the page to
>> the End-User, special handling is required in order to not lose state
>> related to the new session. Even for stateless Consumers, there are
>> techniques to properly handle this issue (e.g. HTTP cookies).
>>
>> - (6.2 - getMarkup): This operation's semantics are that the Consumer is
>> aggregating a page which includes the Portlet's markup.
>>
>> - (6.3 - getResource): This operation's semantics are that the client has
>> requested additional information in a manner that utilized the
>> Consumer as
>> a proxy for supplying that information.
>>
>> Rich
>>
>>                                                                          
>> Subbu
>> Allamaraju                                                          
>> <subbu@bea.com>                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                        
>> To 02/21/06 10:12 AM                      Rich
>> Thompson/Watson/IBM@IBMUS    
>>                                                                        
>> cc                                        WSRP
>> TC                                                                  
>> <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>        
>>                                                                  
>> Subject                                        Re: [wsrp]
>> Clearification:                                                
>> Resource URLs and markup params,  
>>                                        
>> etc.                              
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>                                                                          
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>> As to session, I agree that getMarkup already introduces the problem of
>>> a late notification that a new session now exists. What would people
>>> think about adding text to 6.1.13 (MarkupResponse definition) describing
>>> how a stateless Consumer would need to write any new session information
>>> to a cookie since it is likely too late to place that information onto
>>> all URLs within the page (I suppose the other option is to require
>>> Consumer URL rewriting and delay all rewriting until responses have been
>>> received from all Portlets ... I would not favor describing this option
>>> in the spec)?
>>>  
>>
>>
>> Instead of mentioning specific implementation choices, how about
>> highlighting the fact that consumers must be ready to honor sessionID
>> changes getMarkup and getResource so that they can provide meaningful
>> user experience?
>>
>>  
>>
>>> Just to not loose potential spec changes suggested so far (does this
>>> list miss any??):
>>>
>>>   1. Clarify difference in the semantics of getMarkup and getResource:
>>>      Consumer request related to page aggregation vs client request
>>>      related to need for additional information.
>>>  
>>
>>
>> In principle, I agree, but would not want to make statements that limit
>> the use of getResource to static resources, or such requests to be
>> always driven by client requests after markup generation. The consumer
>> may want to pre-fetch resources.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>   2. Add sentence(s) to MarkupResponse.sessionContext (6.1.13)
>>>      describing how a stateless Consumer can handle such late knowledge
>>>      of a new Portlet session.
>>>  
>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>>  
>>
>>>   3. 6.9/6.10 should note that HandleEventsResponse can also return
>>>      newMode and newWindowState (see above quote from 6.9).
>>>  
>>
>>
>> Agreed.
>>
>> Subbu
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>>> *Richard Jacob <richard.jacob@de.ibm.com>*
>>>
>>> 02/21/06 06:04 AM
>>>
>>>
>>> To
>>>                 Subbu Allamaraju <subbu@bea.com>
>>> cc
>>>                 WSRP TC <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>> Subject
>>>                 Re: [wsrp] Clearification: Resource URLs and markup
>>>  
>>
>> params, etc.
>>  
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Subbu Allamaraju <subbu@bea.com> wrote on 02/21/2006 05:50:37 AM:
>>>
>>> > >       - wsrp-mode and wsrp-windowState portlet url parameters. I
>>>  
>>
>> would
>>  
>>
>>> > > note the descriptions of these explicitly state that they apply to
>>> > > render and blockingAction urlTypes. I think maintaining the
>>>  
>>
>> integrity
>>  
>>
>>> of
>>> > > the aggregated page requires that these not be supported on resource
>>> > > URLs, unless someone can point out how a Consumer's decorations
>>>  
>>
>> could
>>  
>>
>>> be
>>> > > changed or how it would actually place a Portlet into maximize
>>> > > windowState as a result of a resource URL activation.
>>> >
>>> > My interpretation is that, these parameters apply to the portlet
>>> > processing the request, and not necessarily to the consumer applying
>>> > decorations to the markup returned. When a URL contains a parameter
>>>  
>>
>> with
>>  
>>
>>> > a specific window state, the consumer is merely asking the producer to
>>> > generate markup or resource reflecting that window state. I don't see
>>>  
>>
>> a
>>  
>>
>>> > requirement in the spec to change the window state or mode of the
>>> > portlet, although that's what typical portal-consumers may do.
>>> >
>>> huh?
>>> We explicitly say that an URL invocation of a render/pbia URL includes
>>>  
>>
>> the
>>  
>>
>>> request to change the mode/window state.
>>> Therefor I would say the contrary: Consumers should honor this (or be
>>> strongly advised to do so) otherwise
>>> the user experience will suffer. It seems strange for me to ignore the
>>> request. I mean we're trying to define a common aggregated UI behavior
>>>  
>>
>> and
>>  
>>
>>> this certainly contradicts it.
>>>
>>> > >        - title: This is another case of the Portlet having
>>>  
>>
>> opportunity
>>  
>>
>>> > > to impact the Consumer generated portion of the page during page
>>> > > aggregation and therefore doesn't apply to resource url processing
>>> >
>>> > I think, this interpretation is specific to what the consumer is doing
>>> > with the markup or resource. If the consumer is aggregating the
>>>  
>>
>> response
>>  
>>
>>> > into a page that has windows-like titlebars, it might use the title in
>>> > the manner you suggest. Other usages of this field are possible. For
>>> > example, a special purpose consumer may be displaying resources in
>>>  
>>
>> popup
>>  
>>
>>> > browser windows, and use the title in the browser title bar.
>>> >
>>> > >        - sessionID: I am willing to debate this one as I can see a
>>> > > number of good use cases for the Portlet returning a new session,
>>>  
>>
>> but
>>  
>>
>>> > > how a stateless Consumer could handle it is important.
>>> >
>>> > I agree that the stateless consumer use cases break down with
>>>  
>>
>> sessionID
>>  
>>
>>> > returned from getMarkup or getResource. As Mike points out, we have
>>>  
>>
>> this
>>  
>>
>>> > problem with getMarkup itself.
>>> >
>>> > > In summary, perhaps we need to more explicitly state the semantic
>>> > > difference between these operations. Do people generally agree with
>>>  
>>
>> the
>>  
>>
>>> > > semantics I have described above? Do people have other proposals
>>>  
>>
>> which
>>  
>>
>>> > > keep the stateless Consumer supported? Are people willing to throw
>>>  
>>
>> out
>>  
>>
>>> > > the stateless Consumer design point statements?
>>> >
>>> > Is it impossible to keep the consumer stateless? Perhaps not. To be
>>> > truely stateless, consumer can't just push various pieces of state
>>>  
>>
>> into
>>  
>>
>>> > the markup when the page is getting generated on the server side and
>>> > expect the state to ramain constant.
>>> I think currently they can because the render result is a result of the
>>> Consumer processing. Therefor the Consumer has the control.
>>>
>>> > IMO, consumers will have to rely on
>>> > browser side gimmicks to support state updates that happen after the
>>> > page aggregation started (with getMarkup), or even much later (with
>>> > getResource).
>>> Well, things brings us again to AJAX style.
>>> But this breaks the "rule" that the Cosumer is in control and that the
>>>  
>>
>> page
>>  
>>
>>> state is opaque/mainted by the consumer.
>>> Now you seem to imply that portlets/resources can manipulate the overall
>>> page state. I think this isn't true with what WSRP defines today and to
>>> enable that we would need to drop some level of opaqueness of the
>>> overall
>>> state.
>>>
>>> >
>>> > Subbu
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > Rich
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > *Subbu Allamaraju <subbu@bea.com>*
>>> > >
>>> > > 02/15/06 11:48 AM
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > To
>>> > >    WSRP TC <wsrp@lists.oasis-open.org>
>>> > > cc
>>> > >
>>> > > Subject
>>> > >    Re: [wsrp] Clearification: Resource URLs and markup params, etc.
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > >
>>> > > The issue of a producer returning two sessionIDs in parallel
>>>  
>>
>> requests
>>  
>>
>>> is
>>> > > possible, and I don't know if the spec can help either the consumer
>>>  
>>
>> or
>>  
>>
>>> > > the producer.
>>> > >
>>> > > One way of avoiding returning new sessionIDs is to somehow tie
>>> > > initCookie with sessionIDs, and raise InvalidCookie fault when there
>>>  
>>
>> is
>>  
>>
>>> > > a need to return new sessionID. It is possible to design a producer
>>>  
>>
>> to
>>  
>>
>>> > > tie init cookies to sessions, and never return sessionIDs.
>>> > >
>>> > > We have had a number of discussions on this topic in the past, and
>>>  
>>
>> the
>>  
>>
>>> > > solutions are not always pretty.
>>> > >
>>> > > Subbu
>>> > >
>>> > > Stefan Hepper wrote:
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  > Subbu Allamaraju wrote:
>>> > >  >> On the question of modes and states, I don't see why a portlet
>>> should
>>> > >  >> not specify mode and window state params on a resource URL. The
>>> > >  >> resource generated may depend on the window state and mode.
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >> The real question is whether the mode and window state specified
>>>  
>>
>> in
>>  
>>
>>> a
>>> > >  >> resource URL applies to  subsequent getMarkup/pbia/he calls or
>>>  
>>
>> not.
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >> The spec leaves this open. It also leaves the same question open
>>> for
>>> > >  >> normal action and render URLs.
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  > right, I think that needs to be clearified.
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  >> On your point on session, the question is not whether a portlet
>>>  
>>
>> can
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >> return a new sessionID or not, but how it relates to the
>>>  
>>
>> sessionID
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >> returned via a getMarkup/pbia/he. If a producer chooses to
>>>  
>>
>> return a
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >> new sessionID, I would expect the consumer to use that in
>>> subsequent
>>> > >  >> calls. This is because, from the consumer's point, getResource
>>>  
>>
>> is
>>  
>>
>>> just
>>> > >  >> another request for a portlet.
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >> I can see at least one use case for returning a new sessionID.
>>>  
>>
>> That
>>  
>>
>>> is
>>> > >  >> when a portlet is generating the resource, e.g. to generate some
>>> > >  >> response for an Ajax request. It should be able to create new
>>> session
>>> > >  >> either when there is no session currently, or when the current
>>> session
>>> > >  >> expired.
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  > what happens if you make a parallel render call in that case?
>>> Shouldn't
>>> > >  > the spec that in that case that the session id returned by both
>>> calls
>>> > >  > must be the same (like in the JSR 168 case where different
>>>  
>>
>> portlets
>>  
>>
>>> of
>>> > >  > the same web app can create a new session in parallel at render
>>> time)?
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  >> On the question of title, my interpretation is that the title
>>> returned
>>> > >  >> via any operation applies to the current markup returned, and it
>>>  
>>
>> is
>>  
>>
>>> up
>>> > >  >> to the consumer to treat it as a new title replacing the current
>>> one,
>>> > >  >> or use it just for that rendition of the markup/resource. So, I
>>> don't
>>> > >  >> an issue.
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  > Still sounds confusing to me that the spec states for title:
>>> > >  > " The title the Portlet would prefer to be used in any decoration
>>>  
>>
>> of
>>  
>>
>>> the
>>> > >  > markup."
>>> > >  > what are decorations for resources?
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  > Stefan
>>> > >  >
>>> > >  >> Subbu
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >> Stefan Hepper wrote:
>>> > >  >>> Subbu Allamaraju wrote:
>>> > >  >>>> Stefan Hepper wrote:
>>> > >  >>>>> I've some questions regarding the resource URLs. From the
>>> current
>>> > >  >>>>> version of the spec it is not clear to me how getResource and
>>> > >  >>>>> getMarkup relate to each other.
>>> > >  >>>>> - What happens if I specific new nav params, new portlet mode
>>>  
>>
>> /
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>>>> window state on the resource URL? Will they be valid for the
>>> next
>>> > >  >>>>> getMarkup call?
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>> Should they be? I think the semantics are the same as that of
>>>  
>>
>> a
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>>> render URL.
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> Depends if we say that getResource and getMarkup are related or
>>> not.
>>> > >  >>> I think they they should be related and that there should be
>>>  
>>
>> only

>>  
>>
>>> one
>>> > >  >>> set of portlet mode, window state, nav params, per POP. I also
>>> think
>>> > >  >>> that we should not allow a resource URL to change this state,
>>>  
>>
>> that
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>> doesn't make sense to me.
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>>> - What are the semantics for portlet mode and window state
>>>  
>>
>> when
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>>>> rendering a resource? What portlet mode and window state will
>>> the
>>> > >  >>>>> portlet receive if nothing is specified?
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>> I would assume that this is up to the resource handler or the
>>> > >  >>>> producer or portlet.
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> You mean that the result may be different per mode or window
>>> state? I
>>> > >  >>> can see use cases for this, but think that the spec should
>>>  
>>
>> state
>>  
>>
>>> that
>>> > >  >>> the getResource calls gets the current portlet mode and window
>>> state.
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>>> - Can you specify navigational state on a resource URL? (yes
>>>  
>>
>> I
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>>>> assume based on the current spec)
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>> Yes
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>>> - Why can the getResource call create a new session?
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>> It might, if the consumer does not include the current
>>>  
>>
>> sessionID.
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> Why would a getResource call need to create a session? What
>>>  
>>
>> would
>>  
>>
>>> be
>>> > >  >>> the use case?
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>> Could you elaborate on why you think getResource and getMarkup
>>> are
>>> > >  >>>> not related. As far as the context provided by the consumer is
>>> > >  >>>> concerned, they are similar. The only difference is on the
>>> semantics
>>> > >  >>>> of the response.
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> When reading the spec again I could not find a sentence saying
>>> that
>>> > >  >>> they are related. I think this needs to be clarified.
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> Another thing I noted is that the getResource operation is
>>>  
>>
>> allowed
>>  
>>
>>> to
>>> > >  >>> change the portlet title. I think that does not really make
>>>  
>>
>> sense.
>>  
>>
>>> > >  >>> What is the use case for allowing to change the title in
>>> getResource?
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>> Stefan
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>> Subbu
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> > >  >>>
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> > >  >>> To unsubscribe from this mail list, you must leave the OASIS TC
>>> that
>>> > >  >>> generates this mail.  You may a link to this group and all your
>>> TCs
>>> > >  >>> in OASIS
>>> > >  >>> at:
>>> > >  >>>
>>> https://www.oasis-open.org/apps/org/workgroup/portal/my_workgroups.php
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >>
>>> > >  >>
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